In The Leech's third bonus episode, Evan is joined by Cousin Max Romanowski, a Film Studies PhD student, to examine the leechy goodness of Alfonso Cuaron's 2006 film Children of Men.
After hearing about Cousin Max’s journey into Film Studies, the guys dive into Children of Men's leechiest themes (10:01), characters (25:55), and scenes (31:01). After a brief Leech on a Beach respite (43:04), they consider the film’s medicinal qualities (44:58) and give an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film’s leechiness (52:02).
We’re always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!
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Evan 00:26
Hey everyone, welcome back to The Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. The Leech is a show about movies that suck the life out of you. And they also stick with you. They may even be good for you, like a leech. I'm your host, as always, Evan Cate. And I have a special guest today, Max Romanovski, who is my cousin. Hey, Max, welcome to the show.
Cousin Max 00:49
Hello, Evan. Thank you so much for having me. Freaking jazzed to be here.
Evan 00:54
This is very exciting for me. Listeners, you may not know this, but Max is a Film Studies PhD student at his at Eastern Illinois University? [Southern.] Southern. Alright, sorry, the Salukis. [Yes, the fightin' Salukis.] So Max is here with us. And we'll learn more about him as we go. And he has chosen our movie for today, which is Children of Men, Alfonso Cuaron's 2006 film, starring Clive Owen and Julianne Moore and others. And we'll get into that in a little bit. Before we do so, as always, we always are looking to expand our Pond. So to that end, if you would like to contact us on Twitter, @leechpodcast, as well as theleechpodcast on Instagram, please send us your questions, your comments, your videos, and we will be glad to communicate with you there. So without further ado, let's dive into this movie and to our conversation with Max. So Max, tell us more about yourself. What what are you up to? What are you doing? Why Film Studies?
Cousin Max 02:02
Great question. It's a great question to ask me. I love answering it. Yeah, so I think it all sort of started when I was trying to shortcut the system of like, what's a job where I can have the most amount of fun? And so in college that was making movies. And so I went and got into film production. And then I was spending so much time watching movies and like, didn't want to put any effort into making them. I was like, well, kind of a switch here. Which is where the rest of my education/still my education now is going. But beyond that, I'm interested in... I'm a person who likes to take things apart as much as possible. I think the joke is the funniest when it has been dissected and explained to the fullest. [Really?] No, legitimately. Nothing is -- it's actually a dream podcast of mine called Ruining the Joke, where we take the movies and TV shows that are really funny and talk about why they are so funny. [Oh, I love this.] It doesn't actually exist. But I always have podcast ideas. So I think that getting into the minutiae of existence is great and interesting. And film studies, in addition to being just something that I think is really fun, is one, incredibly accessible -- just about everybody's doing it. The number of people who at this moment are absentmindedly watching Netflix is astronomical. But it's also that it's, it's dipping its toes into everything. Sociology, philosophy, psychology, all these different things are happening. And the nexus nucleus of it all is Film Studies. So that kind of lets that intersection happen. And then additionally -- I'm envious of people, I think, who can do differently -- but I think we can't not think about everything. We can't not think about existence. I think in some sense, I think there's like a, a moral imperative to be conscious of what we're watching, how we're behaving, how we interact, how we're evolving as a society and as individuals. So for me, there's sort of this moral obligation of, can I be a better human being? Can I care for the people around me the best? Can I be the most fully realized rendition of myself? Maybe I can, like learn enough, and listen enough, which is an idealistic rendition of the reality of: I like learning how much I don't know.
Evan 04:31
Yeah. Oh, I love that. One, I love that that brings together both like your clear, sort of curiosity and interest in a lot of different things, but also desire to connect to people and to understand how to be in the world. So I love that. I think that resonates with a lot of what's driven us here on The Leech, as well. So you are a very fitting guest for us. So Max, tell us why... So when we were talking about doing this podcast, Max and I were debating a bunch of different movie ideas and kicked around a few. And this one just kept coming to the surface. So why Children of Men?
Cousin Max 05:08
Um, because it's great. No, I mean, I wanted -- if I was gonna, I mean, I would have talked about any movie you set. But if the decision was to me, I wanted to pick something to, right off the bat, that I knew I could talk about for forever, and that I knew, I would love. And also something I hadn't seen in a while. And Children of Men kind of ticks all those boxes in the sense that, I like movies, where as you're watching them, you recognize you're watching what's going to be one of your favorite movies. It doesn't happen all the -- not all of my favorite movies are like that. I've watched some and then three years later, I'll realize that this movie is layered and phenomenal. But sometimes you watch a movie and it instantly grabs you and instantly stands out to you, as you recognize its significance as you're doing it. And Children of Men is that for me. And it's been that -- that seems to be a a common experience with people that I've talked about in this movie, when they watched it. So it felt apt to talk about it. And then I think also just, additionally, I didn't -- maybe this was subconscious -- but there's something about the threatening of humanity's future that felt relevant to now. [Yeah, yep.] Um watching this when I was living in Pasadena on my laptop back in 2015 was a different experience than in the summer of 2021. [Yeah.] Which, by the way, don't watch it on your laptop. I didn't have a TV. So it was all I could do. I watched it on a TV this time. So yeah, I mean, the long and short of it is I just really liked this movie. It's rare that a movie, a movie knows it means something and is important -- and actually is those things. And I always feel that when I watch Children for Men.
Evan 06:50
Yeah, thank you. I was feeling similarly. I saw it many years ago for the first time and appreciated the craft, appreciated the story, was really moved by it. And definitely felt, by the end, there was just this rush to the end of it -- we'll talk about the closing of the film -- but I got to the end and the first time I was exhausted, and I thought oh my goodness, this was so much and it just... and wait. That's it? It's all done? And I think this time through, knowing what was coming, I was able to pay attention to more of the details and see how lived-in the story felt. They just paid so much attention to details in the film. And I think that maybe speaks to what you're describing by how how authentic the film feels and how when you -- it connects on some kind of visceral level like, Oh, these these are people I'd want to hang out with. These are people -- even though they're in these very strange, dangerous circumstances -- they feel like my people on the way.
Cousin Max 07:41
I'd hang out with Jasper any day. [Yeah, aw, Jasper.] Yes. Casper? Yes.
Evan 07:50
Well, oh, pour one out for Jasper. We'll talk about him. So on that note, Max, please give us a synopsis of this movie. What happened?
Cousin Max 07:58
I would love to. Boom. London, 2027. Youngest kid in the world just died. He's 18. Women are infertile. We don't know why. Our protagonist, Theo, used to be an activist. Not anymore. Bummed out, divorced, we learn, because him and his wife, Julian -- played by Julianne Moore -- their kid died, kind of ruined the marriage, zapped him out of everything. However, she's still an activist, needs him to get papers to get people through checkpoints because the whole world's sort of in disarray because nobody has, nobody cares about anything anymore because everybody's gonna die. He reluctantly agrees, realizes that he is helping transport someone who is the first pregnant woman in 18 years. Big deal. Let me tell you, if you haven't seen -- oh, by the way, I'm going to spoil the end of the movie. [Yeah, right.] Don't -- I mean, like, that's the conceit of the movie, so is that as we know that I'm not -- but definitely if you haven't seen it, pause this. Go watch it. It's rated R, FYI, you know, like it's [Yes. Yes.] Look, this isn't, this isn't airing on Nick Jr. This is, this is 10:30 or later at night airing kind of movie. [Yes, that's right.[ That feels important to say. Anyway, so long and short of it: they're constantly on the run. We won't get into the nitty gritty just right now. She has the baby. All the people traveling with with her -- her name's Kee - all the people traveling with her and Theo slowly falling away. Not surviving the journey until it's Theo and Kee. She's had the baby and they're running through a war-torn area as an uprising begins in order to get to a checkpoint, a buoy on the coast, where a potentially fictional or rumored organization is going to meet them to help take care of the child and to potentially restart humanity. That's the the non-cinematic recap.
Evan 10:01
So, as always on The Leech, we like to start by talking about a theme of this movie, a leechy theme, a theme that sticks with you, that sticks with you throughout the movie or after you're done watching it. And I guess I'll start us off, then Max would love to hear what themes stuck with you. But for me, the leechy theme is migration. And I think about the obvious one of Kee migrating from one place, all the way through these checkpoints, all the way across to the coast, and of course Theo with her. But there's also these other folks migrating throughout the film. And I think one of the brilliant parts of this movie for me is the way Cauron's camera is always also moving and migrating and roving. And you think it's following Kee and Theo for most of the time, but then it'll kind of like leave them for a moment and look elsewhere at refugees or folks who are being detained in what are basically like Abu Ghraib-style prisons or concentration camps even. And the film, I mean, the camera is always sort of drawing your attention toward these, these refugee folks, who are -- they speak many languages, many of them have disabilities, they're clearly hungry, starving, poor, moving, trying to move to a place that is safe. And, of course, Kee and Theo are that in the microcosm. But migration, I think, is throughout this film. It's, of course, in part because of the sort of apocalyptic event or events that have occurred: there's been a pandemic, no one's having kids, there's been wars, clearly; you see this industrial decay, you see fields where they've burned up cows. Very, very strange images. But they're always on the move. They're always migrating from somewhere to another for safety. So that's my theme for me.
Cousin Max 11:56
I like that a lot. Especially in terms of the technical means through which the film is shot. There's sort of this, I don't know if it's an adage, or something you see a lot of great movies do. It's that the first scene of a movie, or the first shot of the movie sometimes, teaches you how to watch the movie now. [Nice. Yeah.] And so Children of Men is another great example of where you do that. The entire opening prologue is one uninterrupted shot that ends, that ends with a bombing. [Yeah, it's a oner, right? That's what they're called?] Yeah. Oners. I mean, this movie is tricky with oners. And we can talk about that. Um, yeah, I mean, obviously, there are a lot of them. Finding cuts is really hard to do in it. Because there are a lot of them. Because, because the point of the shots aren't like -- he's not trying to impress you with how long can I make the scene go? And what can I do to make it look cool? (Though I'm sure he's not mad about the reaction.) [No, It does look cool.] Yeah. But so there's lots of cuts at various times. But I do believe that the opening scene is an entire, is entirely a oner, or it's perceived to be at the very least. Anyway. So we get that sort of roaming camera. There's so much around the world we take in in that first shot. And that's super useful because the explosion happens. Both Theo and the explosion take up the same frame. [Yeah, yeah.] Which is so useful, because a cut to an explosion is fine. But if we're talking about the lived-in world, having Theo exist in the same physical space -- we can see them in the same thing -- is such a great reminder of how tangible this world is. He's a part of it, he's in it. And then there's just a really great sound tweak that I love is that we get the ringing ear thing, which comes back, is kicked off there, but then sort of lingers for the first time. [Oh yeah.] So the movie, as he is sort of unstably affected by that. But, all that to say, the theme of migration -- which is not a term I had ever thought to articulate -- like that is communicated in our first in our first moments both literally and, I think figuratively, through how it's shot. So I agree with that. I think that's great.
Evan 14:08
Yeah. And maybe just another scene that comes to mind, as you were describing that, is the scene where they're with Julianne Moore in the car. And they're, they're blowing the ping pong ball back and forth. And it's this moment of levity and intimacy, right? And then the camera pans forward just a little bit -- because Julianne Moore's in the front seat -- and you look out the windshield, and they're being attacked. [Uh, yes.] And well, I think we should talk more about that scene in a minute because that is maybe on my shortlist for leechiest scene. [It's a great, it's a great choice.] But it's also capturing, right, the way the camera is roving, while they themselves are roving as well.
Cousin Max 14:44
Well, and now that you said migration, I can't think of a time that -- the number of times that a scene's only goal is to get from A to B is sort of innumerable. Another scene that I had forgotten existed, but is really good in how stripped down it is, is when they're escaping from the farm, and they can't get the car to start. [Yes, yes.] It's kind of the low -- it's the least sexy chase scene that kind of exists. But there is, there's a grounded realism in it that -- and realism is the wrong word. But you feel like you're there. Like, if you were in that situation, a similar, this similar phenomenon would happen. But again, that's another point of -- the victory for them is to just go from point A to point B successfully. And that's, like, the crux of the scene. [Yeah.] And we see that. I mean, and I mean, right, obviously, the arc of the entire movie is itself literally a journey.
Evan 15:34
Yeah. Yeah. Good. Okay. So Max, what's your theme?
Cousin Max 15:37
Um, so do they have to be singular words? Yours was one word? [No, no, no, no.] Yeah. I mean, in the most umbrella sense, and what I think is great about this movie, is the significance of hope for the perseverance of, I would say life, but that both in terms -- in the literal sense and also the metaphorical sense. So every person who's living in that world, is guaranteed -- more or less guaranteed the same length of life that you and I are right now. But because they know that no one else is going to live after them, that that fundamentally changes. It shouldn't. Like, [Yeah, right.] in terms of who cares what people are talking about in the year 2555 -- you're not going to be there to see it. But if nobody's talking about it then -- anything then -- that, that's affecting, somehow, and it changes how you're living your life now. And I can't get over... [Yeah, that's nice.] ...the idea that hope is tied to something that you'll never see. And without that, without any sort of ability to believe that can happen, what's the point of now? It's a, it's sort of the, the nihilist silver bullet in terms of: we're always looking for meaning. And the idea that there isn't meaning is hard. It's hard for society to take in writ large -- I'm not gonna speak for every individual, individual human. A scene that I love that really pinpoints this... Well, there's a couple scenes. One that I love is just on the train, there's a great shot that says -- I'm going to mess up the verbatim -- but it's some graffiti that says, "Whoever's last, turn the lights out." Which I find to be really great in this sort of, it's both welcoming to 'we're all a part of this situation together.' And it's also isolating and defeating, which is really telling. And then also, you see, if you take a... Theo's journey in this, there's lots of ways to talk about how he sort of becomes active again. But I think the most useful way to talk about it is his... through his bottle of alcohol. [Nice.] So we see it at maybe three or four different points in during the film, and the movie doesn't do anything to over- to foreground this. It isn't a beat in the movie, but it's subtle. The first handful of times we see it, he's usually trying to cope in grief with something -- deal with grief, whether someone's just died or he's upset. And so he'll take a giant swig of some, whatever hard liquor he he has on him. Which I mean, like the ultimate sort of death-drive in terms of a reliance on alcohol, a numbing sort of only going towards death, in some sort of metaphoric and kind of literal sense. The last time we see him use the alcohol, he doesn't drink it. He uses it to sanitize his hands for the delivery. Yeah, that's a great repurposing. I love it. I call that sort of, (I call it) I don't know, if there's, if this is an official term, I call it sort of narrative symmetry, where something that's significant at the beginning tips off and comes back in a useful way and often repurposed way. So...the same thing is used for coping, but its method is one of nihilism of despair of numbing, and the other is of life, of hope, of promise. And I think that's a. And so the movie is not out to show that as a huge beat, but I like it. It's so subtle and so simple. And it tells you he's all in at that point.
Evan 18:57
Yeah, that's, that's really well-put. Listeners didn't see this, but I was just drinking some Japanese whiskey as we started the pod as a nod to my friend, Theo. I did not make the connection that you made, but I think that's a really, really beautiful one.
Cousin Max 19:13
I like whiskey. I'm not saying you shouldn't drink whiskey. I had whiskey the other night. But yeah, I think that's such a -- it's such a great, it's a great world-building. Like, I love when things are two things. [Yeah.] It makes sense, thematically, and if it was just that, that would be perfect. But it's also great touch because that is a good -- all things considered, that's a coherent decision for him to do, like, diegetically in the world. So I like that. [Yeah.] Just to be clear, it doesn't have to be diegetically good. That's just a fun bonus.
Evan 19:42
No, I think you're right. And I think what I like about that, too, is again, there's sort of these microcosm-macrocosm stuff going on. So, Theo, through the loss of his son has already in a way gone through the loss of what children or fertility represent, right. This hoped-for future. [He went through it earlier than everyone else.] Yeah. So he's undergone something himself that now the whole world is experiencing. And he himself has felt the despair that the whole world seems to be experiencing too. And yet, when he meets Kee, and as he gets involved with this journey, you see -- I think the word you used was activated -- you see him come alive and activated. Even till the end of the film, when -- spoiler -- I mean, he dies at the end protecting and saving her. And the child.
Cousin Max 20:29
Presumably. I don't know if... it feels like oh, yeah, there's like this much ambiguity. But I, I don't have any problem saying that he probably...
Evan 20:37
He probably dies. Well, at the -- but the point is that he's content, actually. He has this smile on his face, and he knows that she's going to be safe, and that the child is safe, and that he has sort of done everything he can. [Yeah.] And that is a very different Theo, than the Theo we met the beginning of the film.
Cousin Max 20:52
And also, if you break down dialogue in the movie, Theo's not saying that much, which is also particularly useful of -- that journey is so apparent. And he has done so little to verbalize that journey, which is so useful. That makes it sounds like it's a bad thing. Like, it's so good because it's clear, it's organic. But the movie never has to tell you that. [Yeah.] Each stage -- it's another weird thing, I don't know if -- this is sort of part of it, and I'd love to see your thoughts on it: this movie is very interested with what Theo is wearing on his feet, often.
Evan 21:24
Yeah, I was gonna ask you, that was my big question! What's up with his feet? And there's two things, I have two questions about Theo. Why is it always about his feet? And then what's up with the animals loving him? Why do the dogs love him?
Cousin Max 21:34
That's a great point, too. I actually hadn't thought about the animal thing, other than that, supposedly, there's almost a shot of... in almost every shot of the movie, you can see an animal, or like a dog. Which, from a filming perspective, is a nightmare. You don't want an animal [I'm sure.] So yeah, the fact that they went out of their way to do that is crazy. But I'll have to think about the dog one. The feet one is, is great. Um, because we first see the notion when he is eavesdropping, and he steps out into the mud. And then he's, he's in flip-flops. [Yep.] After... when does he get flip-flops on? In...?
Evan 22:09
Is it at Jasper's? [Yeah.] Second time?
Cousin Max 22:11
Yes, of course. Because who else? And then he's barefoot, and cuts his foot while they're trying to hide out and and it's only once then that he gets shoes. And I mean, there's sort of a, a purely aesthetic and convention read would say like, maybe Cuaron really likes Die Hard, but... I'm sure.
Evan 22:34
Sure. It's a, it's a nod to John McClane. I love it!
Cousin Max 22:38
I would say that probably wouldn't hold up to scrutiny.
Evan 22:42
I mean, they're both movies about Christmas, right? About the coming of...? [Yeah!] I mean, Die Hard's a movie about Christmas. And this movie is like, I mean, we haven't gotten it. We'll get into it, I'm sure, the Marian and the incarnational imagery.
Cousin Max 22:54
Some very, some very clear biblical imagery, in that sense. I don't know if I could link it any further to some of the stuff we've been talking about. But I think it feeds in really nicely to this idea of like, how do you communicate someone's journey? Nonverbally? [Yeah.] And so there's a reason that a hit on the shoes, when like, when he puts the shoes on the table for him to wear, means something to you. There's a, there's a coming into the role. There's this idea of like, like, forged in the crucible. This is a really, really weird parallel, but I think it's useful is there's there was a there's a genre of films, I think, from like the 60s -- don't fact check me on that. But like Hard Body films, and they're like rough and tumble macho guy films. And it's like, they're pretty like, I mean, they're in no way related to this, but part of what they offer -- and then what movies like Indiana Jones adapted -- is this idea that as the story progresses, the physical form of a person, whether it's what they're wearing -- cuts, dirt, sweat -- is tangible as the movie goes on. [Yeah.] Shaun of the Dead is a movie that does that really, really well. So as his feet become worse, for lack of a better term, as he's -- I mean, that's something we kind of take for granted and journeys like this -- the idea that there's a sense of renewal, right before the final climax, where he's come into his role. And he's gifted with Hermes' shoes, right. I don't know if that... I don't know if that, that, the Hermes parallel is perfect. But it is this idea of: he's leveled up and he's ascended. And now he gets rewarded, after this perilous journey. Because feet are like feet are so...what's the word? Vulnerable.
Evan 24:37
Vulnerable. Right, yeah. Well, and I think too, I also read it as each pair of shoes he has to get from someone else. And he's so alone and insular at the beginning of the film, and by the end, he has this very strange community, around Kee and the child, but a community that is in fact quite, quite beautiful and, like willing to lay down their lives for each other. And so he's now reliant on people for his shoes and for the journey in a way that I think demonstrates in a material way the the moral/spiritual journey he's also been on.
Cousin Max 25:11
I think that's that's quite apt as well, for sure.
Evan 25:14
Oh, you did miss one place where the feet show up as well. [Oh, yeah, where?] It's not Theo's feet. It's when he goes to visit his -- Is it his cousin who gets him the passes? And has the statue of David? [Oh, that's right.] I don't know if you noticed? There's two dogs laying in front of the statue. And David is missing a foot! [Missing his..? Yeah.] And that David has traveled from Italy to London [Migration!] and he's missing a foot. Migration again.
Cousin Max 25:39
Yeah, that's great. No, I mean, yeah, I remember seeing that. There's also something, I don't know if this fits... Another great bit of world-building is just this idea that the rich people were just like, I'll just take this all this art for ourselves. I mean, it's just... because who cares?
Evan 25:55
Yeah, well, maybe that's a good transition. Like, we usually do leechy scene next, but I think we've hit on some characters. Who is the leechy character for you?
Cousin Max 26:02
I mean, yeah, his I mean, his cousin is, is useful only in the sense of like, he's like, the villain in a movie that I'm starring in, in terms of his model to life is, like, "Just don't think about it." Which like, maybe I'm both infinitely jealous of and like, livid at because, like, how can you not think about this? Uh, so I think that's a great choice. But I honestly would, would put Luke.
Evan 26:25
Aww, that was mine! That was my choice.
Cousin Max 26:27
Okay. Yeah. So Luke is such an interesting character in that the best character is the one, the one who opposes you, but functionally has the same goal. He just doesn't agree with you, about how to how to go about it. Well, and there, I mean, obviously, his goals are particularly of an exploiting nature, right? Like, he sees, he sees the child not as a singular human in the way that society is comprised of singular humans and single humans who all throughout the world are hurting. This kid is only a, a symbol for, like, a proletariat uprising. [Yep.]
Evan 27:12
Yeah, he wants the cause over the child, which -- [Even though the child defines the cause.] Yeah. And actually, he then ends up mirroring the very people he's fighting against, who also choose their own cause over individuals.
Cousin Max 27:27
Right, but he's, he's misguided, but he's not -- if the villain, if the true villain of this movie or the true Lost Cause in this movie is someone who doesn't have any hope anymore, he's not that person. [No.] He's working for it, he's just lost?
Evan 27:45
He's slightly, like, off, right? Like, he's -- it is fitting that Kee first finds refuge and safety with Luke. And with Julian. Like he is on the right team, in a way, but he's, you know, at this crucial moment, can't help but allow his way of doing it -- his version of the cause --to supersede the person.
Cousin Max 28:10
Yes, um, there's this, I'm gonna be the 'I just heard this the other day, I'm gonna pretend like I know all about it.' [Nice.] But there's this really interesting speech I read. It's called, like, I'm gonna get the -- the exact one is like "A Greeting to the 21st century" or something like that. And it's this, this guy is essentially talking about how bad the 20th century was and how frustrating like, obviously, a lot of bad stuff happened. And you still get down to this idea that anytime someone thinks they have a singular way of how every human should be living, they've gone awry in terms of: whoever doesn't agree submits, there's coercion, there's violence. And so there's this sort of this thing where Luke has a cause, and he has like, mission statements, and he has, he has an army and he has a specific goal. And the bodies pile up for achieving that, including someone who ostensibly is the better version of him: Julian. [Right.] Someone who feels much more equipped. Like, the movie's a lot easier if she doesn't die unceremoniously in the beginning of the second act, right.
Evan 29:19
Which is, I mean, gutsy on Cuaron's part, right? Julianne Moore is a huge star.
Cousin Max 29:24
You don't kill a named character like... Well, sorry: you don't kill someone as famous as Julianne Moore that early.
Evan 29:30
Right. Also, I mean, in weird ways this movie is gutsy in like, that. And also the action scene, you know, the car chase scene that you described a minute ago that's not a car chase. Right?
Cousin Max 29:40
Yeah, that's kind of that. You only need to change a couple things. And that's like a really good, I don't know, Mr. Bean sequence.
Evan 29:49
Oh, I was thinking the opposite way too. I mean, you change a couple of things, and it's Fast and the Furious and they're like jumping between cars.
Cousin Max 29:56
Well, yeah, you would have to really spruce it up. It's the most boring -- It's like, if the next Mad Max movie lost all of its funding and they're like, "Okay, well, we got to do something."
Evan 30:05
That's good. Yeah, you know, I think Luke is, is there for me as well. For the same reasons that you described. Maybe an honorable mention. This is a small, small thing but the Repenters or the Renouncers. [Okay.] Gave me a lot of Leftovers. Did you ever watch that show? The TV show? [Yeah.] Right, the Guilty Remnant. They kind of had that vibe. You know, the self-flagellating while also condemning the world at the same time.
Cousin Max 30:34
I mean, there's actually a lot of, I mean, thematic parallels of 'giving up hope, not the world' -- seems to have disappeared, even though like they're still gonna live as long as they did. [Yes. Yeah.] There. There's a leech TV show, amirite?
Evan 30:49
That's right. Oh, great call. Yeah, Leech listeners, if you'd like for us to do a season on a season of The Leftovers, please just hit us up on Twitter. And we'll try to do that.
Cousin Max 30:58
Wow. Gotta watch that after this.
Evan 31:01
Okay, so we've mentioned a few of them. But what's a... Max, do you have a leechy scene for us?
Cousin Max 31:05
This is tricky in the sense of: the movie is so bled into each other, isolating things is really hard. So I think one of the things I struggled with when I was watching this --rewatching this movie -- is was like, 'Is this, like, dark enough?' Because I am so frequently inspired by the movie. [Yeah.] Um, as opposed to other movies that are heavy that I love. This one, it continually encouraged me in certain spots, because of how things are split. So like, any of the oners are great instances of this. I'm going to pick the final, the final battle sequence, split down the middle, because I think this is -- and this is like, the entire movie in a nutshell, in the sense that the back half of that is transcendent cinema. [Yes. Yeah.] The front half of that is the bleakest the movie gets, I think, in terms of this is the full scale. And this is where, this is where the oner stuff pays off. Shooting long takes is awesome. I am, I feel like a kid in college with a Fight Club poster on my wall. I love watching. Is that, I mean, I don't... kids, film students probably don't do that anymore. I don't know. [I don't know.]
Evan 32:15
1917 was the most recent.
Cousin Max 32:17
Yeah. But yeah, 1917 is a great example. Which is another movie that like, isn't amazing, but I liked watching it because it looked really cool. Um, so we can talk about how they're cool and how they pulled them off and where the hidden cuts are. And that's a fun conversation I like to have. There are few movies using these long takes as usefully as this one. Because it's all happening. The scene is so heavy, I think, in large part because of its just continued existence. So he's dodging behind things. There's gunfire, people falling over, people dying, people screaming. There's no -- it's unflinching because we -- if a cut is a taking a breath or blinking, in terms of physiological parallels to filmmaking, you don't do -- you hold your breath and you keep your eyes open. It's that sort of psychological strain. And you see all of that for, what, five, seven minutes. So a scene where he's running down and... The way you normally do it, he's running down, he sees -- we cut close up, we see people and tanks coming in their way -- we cut back to him, runs into the bus -- we cut into the bus, cut back out to them, shots at the window -- cut that. It's a good scene. That all happens and we don't cut away, there's an extra bit of weight to that. And we feel that intensity: we're huddling down with him, we see those people. It becomes a space that we live in, because it's all mapped out for us. And like I said, we don't cut away. And so you feel the weight of that. Um, and so there's a real shot and chaser sense of: the second half, where they descend the set of steps is, I mean, that's not a Leech scene.
Evan 34:02
No, I mean, you get goosebumps just thinking about it. [Yeah.] I think that scene was on my shortlist. I'll talk about a different one. But just to piggyback on what you're saying, I think part of what's so leechy about that -- and if we're holding both those halves together that you described -- it's that it becomes upside down. The transformation of people and the setting, the very same setting that's been so heavy, that you can't get out of, and then all of a sudden, the very troops that are firing on them from seemingly every angle, basically, bow in adoration [Yeah] to this, this child and Kee. I think for me, that's -- the scene sticks with me. You know, the first half maybe is leechy in that it sucks the life out of you, but the second half sticks with you in this more salutary way.
Cousin Max 34:46
But I was thinking the X Factor in a scene like that -- and this is tough because not a lot of -- it's not something that I think I would have thought to do. But perhaps even more affecting or, or noteworthy, or revelatory about our humanity is something that it's easy to, easy to forget in that scene. And it's though how the scene ends. I think it's very safe and smart and beautiful if we watch her walk out and ascend, and there's that that reverence. That's not how the scene ends. [No, right.] Someone freaks out about someone else. Someone sees someone's arm twitch or something. A shot's fired. We're back in. [Yes.] The glimpse of the Divine has ended. And we're back into a fallen world. And I think that is so good. So maybe that makes the whole scene the leechiest because, because it's bookended by the fact that they have this experience, but it isn't enough to fully pull them out of that. They're back to the shooting again [Yeah] the second they think someone might double cross them.
Evan 35:45
Yeah, it is revelatory. It is, it is apocalyptic in that sense. [Yeah.] The, you know, the literal definition of apocalypse is revelation. And it's in the midst of, in a post-apocalyptic and literally apocalyptic setting as the war is going on. And yet this real revelation burns for a moment, everybody sees it, but then they go back to what they were doing before. They go back to fighting. And, yeah, I think you're right, that that's really leechy. That's... it keeps you from being too content, too happy. And but it also feels real. I mean, this is, I could totally see that happening, right?
Cousin Max 36:24
It's the hard decision that, that elevates work like this, in that you're risking sacrificing the obvious and more narratively polished option -- which I'm not, I'm not knocking, I don't wanna make it sound like, he cracked the code -- but you're risking a worse product and a worse constructed scene by doing that. But when that gamble pays off it, that's where you transcend. And it makes you ask this really weird question of: How could... How could they possibly go back after seeing that? But in all great movies, that question, then, you know, is the movie a window or a mirror? And so in that question, the question, it's sort of reflected back on you, and we're not watching the first child in 18 years in front of us, and we're not shooting a bomb into a building of civilians. But where do we? Where do we see...
Evan 37:27
But that is happening in our world. I mean...
Cousin Max 37:29
Well, yes, absolutely. Um, yeah. So like in the societal level, and also, what are my encounters with the divine that are intercut between nothing? [Yeah.] And how could I possibly go back to the nothing after the encounter with the divine?
Evan 37:44
Yeah, I mean, that's right. And I think, well, let's, let's talk about that when we get to hirudotherapy. I think there's more to unpack there. Yeah, let me shout out a couple scenes. I think we mentioned it before, when they're in the van. And Julian and Theo are doing this trick that they used to have, where they would basically blow a ping-pong ball between each other and catch it in their mouth. It's playful. It's intimate. There's a knowingness, you could tell they've been married, they've known each other. [Familiarity, yeah.] But you also know their story. And you know there's a lot of sadness there. And then, within two minutes, she's dead. And they've been attacked and they're running for their lives. And I think the, the suddenness of the tonal shift, as the camera moves, is just something I'm not going to forget. And it's, it's a scene that really, really stuck with me this time for the intimacy of that relationship -- for all that is symbolized by that silly little ping pong ball trick -- but then just the sudden turn to almost like a horror film. It's almost like they're being attacked by zombies, really.
Cousin Max 38:45
Yeah. And the camera perspective is doing a lot of work in that scene to aid that. It's something that, if not felt, if not articulated, is definitely viscerally experienced, in that you're, you're robbing of a perspective to really fully understand what's going on in that scene, in that I find myself feeling like I'm leaning over and trying to get a better glimpse of what they're dealing with, and you're robbed of that. And so you're like, you're, it's claustrophobic. You're stuck in the car with them. And so that space that was a second ago, great and mundane in the best possible way --
Evan 39:19
You think you can relax. You think you can be you're safe, right?
Cousin Max 39:22
Yeah, we're still physically in that space and as confused as they are. Because we were never omnisciently aware of what's happening in that scene, other than just like, "Oh, they're blocking us off. Wow, I guess there's a lot of people okay, okay, we're going back now." So that's so, yeah. All that to say is, again, a great, a great instance of the form only complementing that dramatic shift you're describing.
Evan 39:44
Yeah. So then the other one I would point out... I guess two. I want to do two, and these will be brief. One is the second time that Theo is with Jasper, where he's brought Kee and Miriam to hide out and it becomes clear that their walls have been breached and they have to run again. And so Kee and Miriam and Theo get out the door, they drive up to this hill, they're hiding, and they see Jasper basically defending them from Luke and these other folks. Luke ends up killing Jasper. But before he does so, you can see Jasper trying to delay them. And he goes back to this joke that he had, which is really kind of crass. But it's like, "Hey, pull my finger. You know, pull my finger." Again, it's this moment of ordinary joking, this sort of pleasant thing. And then there's just this act of utter brutality. Right? I mean, this film toggles between those, the mundane, the, the, you know, mildly comic to murder, just cold blooded murder.
Cousin Max 40:47
Yeah, that scene always...I always circle around that in that he... he asks him twice. He's been shot. And his, and his reaction, again, is to double-down on the gag before he gets shot again. Another, like a repeated beat of that exact phenomenon you're describing.
Evan 41:10
Yeah. And it's interesting, as you say, that, too, it reminds me maybe -- it's interesting how that, that little phrase changes with each time he says it. So the first time it's sort of a joke, and you can kind of be like, Oh, this is a goofy old man. But then the second time, it's almost like, "Pull my finger, asshole." [Which finger is he, which finger is he pulling?"] Yeah. It's like, 'I'm not going to tell you anything.' [Exactly.] But I'm gonna -- I'm actually mocking you now. [Right.] Which is a little bit of an F you that I, you know, you kind of respect,
Cousin Max 41:37
Right, I mean, he, he's, he's confirming he's dying for a principle and for a cause, and he's not gonna compromise.
Evan 41:44
Yeah, so then the other one, speaking of dying for a principle, would be my other leechy scene. Sorry, I've done three now. But there's so many in this movie! But it's when Miriam gets taken off the bus. And she, it's when the, the police officer comes on with the dog. And I don't even know what they're looking for. But they're looking, I guess, to take people who shouldn't be on the bus off the bus. And they know that if they take Kee off the bus, she's probably going to get killed and the child will die. And so Miriam basically stands up, starts praying -- and I think is trying to just take attention off of Kee. And basically, the police officer thinks she's crazy. And then says, "Okay, take her," and, and they take her and they line her up. And it's, again, this sort of concentration camp/Abu Ghraid-style execution area, it looks like. And so you see her -- and then the camera focuses on her face from the perspective of the bus as it drives by -- and you just see that she's sad, she's, but she's also sacrificed herself for the cause for this, this principle of life. And it is just so beautiful, and terrifying at the same time.
Cousin Max 42:49
That scene is doubly coded as well in the sense of, right, she's praying for deliverance. So she, she's doing that as a form of distraction. But that distraction is, in itself, a form of, form of the prayer she's doing verbally. [Yeah.]
Evan 43:04
Oh, that's lovely. Okay, so that is, uh, that's our leechy scenes. So let's, let's take a minute and just go to the beach. So we'll do a little Leech on the Beach now. We like to take a little moment every episode to, you know, talk about a time in the movie where we get to just hang out, relax, get some sun. Because let's be real, this is an intense movie, like so many Leech movies. And so Max, where do you go when you just need to... To relax for a minute in this film?
Cousin Max 43:32
It's tricky, because every, almost every relaxing moment is then -- you're insulted for enjoying it by something bad happening. But I'm going to Jasper's house. [Yeah.] With the exception of like, post-alarm trigger. Um, you don't want to mess around with them. And that one scene, that one great scene where Theo standing and like, they're out of focus and like we're dealing with lots of stuff. That's heavy. Everything else with them, um, great. Fun. I...don't quote me on this, but I've heard that Michael Caine based this character on John Lennon.
Evan 44:07
Oh, interesting.
Cousin Max 44:08
Yeah, I don't know if that's true. But I have heard that. That's fun. And I'm just a big Michael Caine fan in general, so it's it's -- and it's also the only time, like one of the few times you see Theo kind of at like tastefully at ease, even though he's still upset about stuff. So like that great one of him like trying to tell a joke, with all like the weed in the background and they got the records on. It's fun, I like it. It's, it's lived in, it feels great.
Evan 44:32
Yeah, I think I'm right with you. I think I'm right with you on that. Yeah, all the other places, whenever there's a moment of levity, the film teaches you, whenever there's a moment of levity that something, [Tense up, yeah] something's coming. Yeah, I'll agree with you. Jasper's house.
Cousin Max 44:47
Perfect. Sign me up.
Evan 44:48
All right. Well, that's been our segment of Leech on a Beach. Let's go back to the film itself.
Cousin Max 44:54
Now time to feel terrible.
Evan 44:58
Okay, so Max, this movie, you chose it for many, many reasons. Will you start us off with the hirudotherapy of this film, the salutary, even medicinal qualities of this leechy film?
Cousin Max 45:13
Yeah, I'd love to. Obviously, there there, the movie exists on this fulcrum of hope and nihilism. And so that's where this, I think, really circulates around. But what I found is that this movie does a really great job of some defamiliarization. Right? It's this idea that we're taking something that is apparent, and we know, and it's making us reconsider its weight by presenting it in a way that we don't fully appreciate. The more impressive ones, movies or experiences, are the ones that defamiliarize something that is so fundamental to existence. Shout out to "This Is Water," David Foster Wallace speech, same kind of concept. [Yeah, yeah, yeah.] So how do you defamiliarize the idea of a baby? I wouldn't know. But this, this movie is doing that. And so even the baby's cries are something that's awesome and beautiful. And so like that last scene where she descends down the stairs, and everyone sees it, it transcends everything. It cuts through this idea of: that was all of us, and because we're seeing that now, it could be everyone else after us. Which is what it means when someone's born now. This moment, a bunch of people just were born as I spoke that sentence. It means that now, this movie is a, it's a defamiliarization of the, of the embodiment of hope that literal new life can bring. Like, how exciting is that? That, that's always makes it worth it for me is this moment, as we, as we teeter in the movie, literally on the precipice, out in the ocean of: is anyone coming? What's next? Are we going to survive? Are we going to control this pandemic? What's going on with global warming? International relations stress me. In that, there still is new life. And then maybe, when there is that life, as long as it's there, there is maybe still some hope? And that movie does that through the making the phenomenon of birth -- making us recognize that as, for as big of a miracle as it is.
Evan 47:24
That is beautiful. That is beautifully put.
Cousin Max 47:26
Thank you. I mean, the movie did it. I, I'm just obsessed with it. Yeah. So I mean, right. So this is the -- if the opening scene is the establishment that, without hope for the future, civilization collapses -- the ending of the movie is suggesting that new life can be the hope for a future that we may never see, but could possibly exist.
Evan 47:50
Yeah, that's nice. Maybe just to follow up on that. Do you, so the closing title comes back on the screen. And then there's, it sounds like multiple children laughing, which, I wonder how you read that? I heard that as: they get picked up on the boat and there's other kids on that boat. And they're just like, this is, this is the sort of Ark of humanity, kind of sort of heading into uncharted waters. But maybe that's a too optimistic read.
Cousin Max 48:15
So I say that I read it, I mean, there are few movies I don't read with the optimistic slant, probably. But I don't read it as literally. In a sense of, I think that that is the first baby that's been born 18 years, but the boat coming and the children is then therefore the fundamental representation that contained with that is the, is that laughter. And that, [yeah] the trajectory has been set, achieved, made possible -- that through this child, the humanity will be saved. Now did I accidentally make a crazy overt biblical parallel? Yes, of course. But!
Evan 48:16
No, not accidental. That's --
Cousin Max 48:17
I mean, I mean, that's what I mean, the movie is certainly, the movie is is not (I mean, I mean, no movie is about like one thing). I don't think that's the primary point the movie is trying to make. But it's definitely using that imagery and that evocation to further the point more completely.
Evan 49:12
I think that's right. So the, the medicinal quality I was going to point to was actually a line from the Bible. I am a Div student, after all. [Yeah, say it, can't escape it.] But it would be "The light shines in the darkness. And the darkness has not understood or overcome it." I mean, how much of this film is an analog or, I don't know what what literary term you want to use, but it is a sort of re-telling, a modern re-telling of Mary, Joseph and the Christ child, maybe going to Egypt? I don't know. However you want to talk about that. There is this, this child who is the salvation of humanity. Right. Now, it's a very different context in which this is happening. And I don't think Cuaron is trying to paint a picture where this, this kid is the Son of God or something like that. But I do think those echoes are purposeful. And, and I like just, I like what you're saying about how, when that child comes down the stairs, it's something that makes you reframe and rethink how you think about any child, how you think about any life. And in that way, a highly personalized, or even incarnational vision of life, becomes one that's actually deeply humanizing. So it's, it seems to me something like an argument for a radical focus on the personal. [Yeah.] As, in opposition to, even as in opposition to notions of civilization, because civilizations in this movie are pretty much just bound to fight and destroy each other at some point or break down. But a focus on the person and the strange sort of communities that can happen when you attend to the person in front of you. That to me is really, really rich, it's resonant. It reminds me of a lot of the novels and books that I've always loved. But that, that notion of this one light shining, and then illuminating every other part of our life -- how we see children, how we think about our neighbors, how we think about life in this world -- that's going to stick with me.
Cousin Max 51:07
Yeah, it's a beautiful movie. I really like it. Look, if you listen to all this, and you haven't seen it, I hope we've convinced you to watch it. Also just to go back through and watch all those moves, all of Alfonso Cuaron's movies -- he's been making bangers [Seriously] for the last 20 years. And you should watch all of them. [Don't sleep on Harry Potter III.] I would never. However, I would be like a bad person if I didn't double a content advisory for Y Tu Mama Tambien. You know, proceed with caution there. I I didn't have that warning. And I found myself way out of my depths.
Evan 51:43
And he did Gravity, of course.
Cousin Max 51:45
Oh, yeah. Well, that was, I think that was probably my -- not opening exposure -- but like I was in, I was in film school when Gravity came out. And I, I was real ride-or-die on that movie. I got in a lot of, a lot of fights about whether or not Gravity was all spectacle or if it actually said something, and I was firmly in the camp that it said something.
Evan 52:01
Yeah, I agree with that. Story for another pod. We should do Gravity at another point. [Yes.] Okay, so Max, moment of truth. One to four leeches. How many are you giving this movie?
Cousin Max 52:12
This is really tricky. Um, right. Like, if I'm reading it purely on like, how much I like this movie, right? Like, this is probably, I mean, I would never -- it's hard to pinpoint it. I mean, I'd probably put it my top 10, depending on, depending on the day, right? I have to set -- I'd have to kill a lot of darlings. So I mean, it's four leeches, if that's the case. Um, if it's terms of how weighty it is, though, I'm actually more inclined to, to bump it down to closer to two, only in the sense that I am so encouraged by, right, like, you look humanity in the face, and it's hard, but you're rewarded with hope. So I'm gonna split the difference. I'm gonna say this, this is a good ole three leecher. [Okay.] Because it's weighty and it's great. But I don't feel empty as it ends.
Evan 52:58
Okay. I'd echo a lot of that. I'm at two, leaning three, but I'm gonna go two mostly because I -- there's, there's so many moments where I do laugh and so many moments of beauty and so many moments where, I don't know, I didn't feel quite exhausted by it. Which, on one level, is great. I'm glad for that -- I don't need to feel exhausted by every movie. [True.] But I think for the full Leech effect, you do need that exhaustion, along with the medicine. [Yeah.] So I'm at two.
Cousin Max 53:28
Not a, it's not a You Were Never Really Here, if anyone's seen that. That's, that's another another movie for another time.
Evan 53:36
Okay, well, we'll have to bring you on. So, speaking of which, Max, you have some things to plug. What are you working on?
Cousin Max 53:42
I do. Um, in terms of things like -- I mean, there's lots of things I'm working on that would not gain plugging at all: my dissertation. There's nowhere to follow that, uh, I'm perpetually trying to write a sitcom but that's not anywhere. [Okay.] What you can follow and actually pay attention to is that I've in the process of, of co-writing and co-directing a, an animated web series [Ooo.] called Blee Blump and Fletcher: Moon Detectives. [Okay.] It's the intergalactic buddy comedy of, of a human named Fletcher and an alien named Blee Blump solving, solving crimes in like, like a private eye investigation agency on the moon. [Okay.] We're a little more than halfway done animating the pilot and we're writing the rest of the season. If you want to follow us on Instagram @moondetectives -- I should check that to make sure I have the right one -- I'm pretty sure it's moondetectives. I don't run the account -- my co-writer and co-director runs it, so he -- oh, let me, let me make sure I'm not eating my words. But if you want to follow that and see progress, we did this thing where we just got really talented people to help us out. And so they're like -- we had a pretty fun idea. And it is moondetectives, yes, it is @moondetectives. [Okay.] We had a pretty fun idea and then we got a great animator and we found voice talent that we're really obsessed with. If you, if you like or follow Aaron Chewning of Vine fame and now social media fame, he, he voices a Space Captain. So if that's a lure for you... Yeah, I'm really excited about a bunch of stuff. I could talk about that for an entirety. I appreciate you giving me any sort of form to talk about stuff. [Dude, that sounds amazing. I can't wait to check it out!] Me, I can't wait to see it done as well.
Evan 54:05
Well, I figure too, with your sitcom, you know, you could just practice your jokes breaking down the joke and why it's funny on Twitter. And people can follow you with that, too. I mean...
Cousin Max 55:35
I mean, I should -- my, my Twitter is for very, a very niche audience who I haven't found yet.
Evan 55:44
Fair. Well, hopefully, this is one step in that direction. Max, this has been such a pleasure. [Great, yeah.] Thank you for sharing your movie, your insight, your wisdom, expertise.
Cousin Max 55:55
Thank you so much for having me. I had a blast. I hope to come back.
Evan 55:58
Yeah, let's do it again. So listeners, please hit up Max and check out his, his art, his productions. And if you have questions for Max or for us, hit us up @leechpodcast on Twitter, as well as theleechpodcast on Instagram. If you have special questions for Max, you can send them to me and I'll talk to cousin Max again and see if we get him back on the pod sometime soon.
Cousin Max 56:27
Perfect. I'll answer any questions, probably.
Evan 56:30
Probably. So, as always, this is The Leech Podcast: the most visceral podcast. Thank you for being with us. I'm Evan Cate. Hope y'all have a great day. Take care y'all. This episode was hosted by Evan Cate. Editing by Evan Cate. Graphic Design by Banks Clark. Original Music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and Music. Production help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind Productions. And equipment help and consultation from Topher Thomas.