Midway through Season 2, the guys track and prod the leechiness of another Coen Brothers classic: No Country for Old Men.
After a Leech Anatomy 101 PSA segment (2:07), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into No Country for Old Men’s leechiest themes (7:46), scenes (12:09), and characters (22:46). To get some relief, the guys head to the shore for Leech on a Beach (30:13). They conclude by considering the film’s medicinal qualities (32:01 and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film’s leechiness (45:54).
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Evan 00:00
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. I'm your host, Evan Cate, and I'm joined by my two favorite leechy gentlemen, Aaron Jones and Banks Clark. Hey guys. [Good to be here.] The Leech Podcast is a show about movies that suck the life out of you. But they also stick with you. They may even be good for you, just like a leech. We are here in Season Two of the Leech Podcast and today we will be discussing the film No Country for Old Men. It is a film that came out in 2007, directed by the Coen Brothers, based on a novel by Cormac McCarthy. It stars Josh Brolin, Javier Bardem, and Tommy Lee Jones. It was nominated for eight Academy Awards. It won four of them, including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Adapted Screenplay, and Best Supporting Actor for Javier Bardem. It is an excellent film, and we look forward to discussing it. But before we do so, we want to remind you, as always, that we love expanding our pond. So please hit us up on Twitter @leechpodcast; on Instagram theleechpodcast; and our website, theleechpodcast.com. All right, Aaron, I have a hankering for more knowledge about leeches. What can you teach me?
Aaron 01:51
It's time to teach us about the leeches, my friend. This week we're talking about No Country for Old leeches, or no leeches for old men.
Evan 02:04
So wait, it sounds like it's more of a public service announcement if it's the latter.
Aaron 02:07
No leeches for old men. I was doing a little bit of leech research, as one does, and ran across a hirudologist practicing like leech, kind of like pseudo-physician, who's working in like New York and New Jersey named Andrew Plucinski. [Okay.] Listeners may remember last season, a reference to Polish leeches that were sent to space. This time, more Polish leeches, but in the United States. [Okay.] I'm quoting from the article. Listen -- this is an article from northjersey.com about Plucinski's leech practice -- and I just want you to listen to the reference to old people here. [Oh, no.] Love the old people. [Yep.] No leeches for old men. "Andrew Plucinski's fascination with leeches has its roots in his childhood in Poland, where women of his grandmother's generation sat around the house with leeches attached to their foreheads and ankles [No!] hoping to treat migraine headaches and varicose veins. [Nooo.] I continue with one other random detail. Apparently, maybe there are leeches for old men or old ladies? It's interesting that "Plucinski flew home to Poland in 2008." I'm quoting again, "and enrolled in a six week course in hirudology, graduating with a certificate." If you too would like to, instead of going to med school, take a six week course [Yes!] in hirudology, you can begin practicing. And he charges $40 a leech when he's putting them on people and treating them. [They charge by the Leech? That's how you do it, huh?] By the Leech he charges, and I'm sure there's other fees as well.
Evan 03:51
That's a racket, man. That's a racket.
Aaron 03:54
I'm not here to judge his practice. But I was intrigued by the reference to old ladies with leeches on their foreheads. [Wow.] That's what I've got for this week, folks.
Evan 04:02
Wow. Well, there are other things that happen to characters' foreheads in this movie. So maybe we can think about that as we dive into the film. Okay, well, thank you, Aaron. Let's transition then to our film. We want to, as always, give a quick spoiler and content warning. We are going to talk about what happens in this film. It is a great film, you should see it. However, be warned. There are scenes of violence, there's bad language, and there's plenty of other adult themes. So beware as you begin. Also, we know that there are folks who listen to the pod who don't watch the movies ahead of time. We think that's awesome. And so, to help you prepare for this conversation, Banks, please tell us what happens in this movie.
Banks 04:48
Happy to give a synopsis. It's always awesome to return to a Coen Brothers movie. And the Coen brothers, they love their Westerns, and this one is definitely in that spirit. So, No Country for Old Men takes place in the Texas desert. And what we are doing in this movie is we are following one Llewellyn Moss, who's played by Josh Brolin. And what happens is, Llewellyn finds a bunch of money. He stumbles across this drug deal that's gone south and ends up sort of following the tracks to some poor man, who was the last man standing and then the last man dying. And then he ends up sort of taking the money and thinking it's going to be his. But what ends up happening is he himself ends up getting tracked by all sorts of ill-meaning folks, whether it's members of a cartel who discover him. And so-and-so higher up the food chain decides that no, they need to hire, you know, proper, you know, what seems to be a bounty hunter. And so, we're introduced to Anton Chigur, who is this dreadful, frightening, unfeeling, and unrelenting character played by Javier Bardem. And what ends up happening is he is pursued through all different places. There's a tracker in the money and they find him in hotel rooms. He doesn't -- he has this sort of silent shotgun that he goes through, but his preferred mode of killing is with this... It's a pneumatic, sort of, cow-killing machine. What is it called?
Evan 06:23
It's a captive bolt stunner.
Banks 06:25
It's a cap-, there we go. It's a captive bolt stunner.
Evan 06:27
A prominent character in this film.
Banks 06:30
It really kind of is -- one of them for sure. And of course, he's not the only one being pursued. Woody Harrelson is another person, who plays the bounty hunter Carson Wells, who's also in pursuit. And actually Carson Wells ends up getting killed by Anton Chigur. And everyone is in pursuit of this money, and everyone is running from something else. And in the end, the main character of Llewellyn Moss ends up getting killed, and you don't even know who killed him. They just sort of -- you see a truck drive off. And yet, the other thing that's happening in this movie is he's being traced and, right on their heels, is a cop, is a detective, is an old sheriff in the form of a Western played by Tommy Lee Jones. Who's sort of tracing things through. And in the end, can't really stop the crime. Can't stop the murder. But is always there, finding it; is always there, sort of right on its heels. And that's what this movie is about. Everyone is on someone else's heels, in pursuit of the money, in pursuit of something. And the movie ends with Anton Chigur continuing, even after the money, he's still going after the money even when all the other characters are done looking for it. Even when people have died. The search never ends. But the movie does.
Evan 07:46
Okay. Yeah, that actually picks up exactly where I want to start with our leechiest theme, which for me, was the theme of tracking or hunting -- hunting or being hunted. Like you said, Banks, Moss finds the money, he tracks it down himself. And then once he finds it, he himself becomes immediately tracked by Chigur and others. And then the trail of dead bodies that Chigur leaves behind him becomes tracked by Tommy Lee Jones and his associates. So it's this story in which people are tracking this money, they're tracking people. But then these tables get turned in different places. So sometimes Moss is tracking Chigur, right? [That's right.] And there's these interesting ways in which you see the characters actually mirror each other, through that prism of being hunted and hunting. So that's really uncomfortable. I think it leads to the most tense moments in the film, the scenes that I remember the most, that take the most out of me. So I think that theme of hunting, being hunted, tracking -- that is my leechy theme.
Aaron 08:53
Yeah, that reminds me of things like The Most Dangerous Game, right? It's like this idea of people who end up -- you're hunting, you're both being hunted. You're both hunting, you're both being hunted. And one of the things I wanted to note, like, in the book and the movie both: the first time you meet Llewellyn Moss is when he's hunting antelope. [That's right.[ He's physically hunting animals. [Yep.] And that's when he finds the money and he finds the cars out in the middle of the desert. [Yeah, yeah, that's right.] Yeah, I'd like to throw in another leechy theme here. This is coming from the film. It's coming from the book, which I've read twice. And here I am, I'm interested in the title, No Country for Old Men, which comes from a poem by William Butler Yeats called "Sailing to Byzantium," as in future Constantinople, future Istanbul, Byzantium. And the first line of the poem is, "That is no country for old men." And as you go down through the poem, he says things like, "an aged man is but a paltry thing./A tattered coat upon a stick." [Wow.] And there's a sense in which, like, the life of the old is a life that is withering and unraveling. And I have a sense that, like there's that tattered coat upon a stick. And the way that this story moves along is that the kinds of orderliness, the kinds of stability that people expect and rely on, they continually unravel until things make less and less sense and are less and less safe. And yeah, No Country for Old Men, because it's a country where things don't stay the same. They get worse, and they change.
Banks 10:39
There's a lot of worsening that happens. No one ends better in this movie, I don't think. Like no one, no one ends up in like, "Cool. That was a nice trip." [Yeah, no.] It's a good way to think about it. And, and I know, I think that I resonate with, like both y'all. The theme that stands out to me is the theme of dread. Because in the one sense, yeah, there's like, the literal fear for your life because Anton Chigur is gonna pneumatically bolt my brain in. But like, there's also the existential dread of just having no sense of safety or peace, of being on the run. But I think there's even a deeper one, of the pursuit of something other than just being oneself. Like there's this pursuit of needing the money to be something, needing to find somebody to get that -- always needing one more thing. And everyone is pushing for that so badly. And like, no one is comfortable. Everyone is restless in this. And like, yes, it is a chase and there's a hunting. But it makes you wonder, what are they hunting for?
Evan 11:44
Except for Carla Jean, maybe?
Aaron 11:45
I was thinking that -- I was thinking of Carla Jean.
Banks 11:48
See? And that character at the end -- notice, she confronts Anton Chigur. That's -- Llewellyn does not get any sort of dramatic confrontation in the end, right? You don't even see it. [Yeah.] Carla Jean does. She gets her moment. Right? Because that is the moment where the dread meets -- what is it? -- something else. [Yeah.]
Aaron 12:09
She is the only person in the film who is killed as a result of Chigur's famous habit of the coin toss. [Yeah.] Yeah. So I, is it alright if we jump into leechy scene here? Can I take us there? [Yeah, do it.] Because I think we have to talk about coin tosses if we talk about leechy scene. So for leechy scene, we are in Season Two, we're going to propose a series of scenes that are particularly leechy, that stick with us, that take something out of us, that might be good for us in some way. And then we're going to try, through conversation, to arrive at one we think is the leechiest. And I'm just going to just put on the table immediately the scene at the gas station. Remember, this is No Country for Old Men. And there's an old man at the gas station, trying to collect money from Chigur for the sunflower seeds eating and the gas he's purchased. And it turns into one of the most uncomfortable scenes in the movie, where Chigur, who's this agent of -- as you said, Banks -- kind of like unrelenting violence. He's a man who "has principles." And once you become his enemy -- even in the smallest way, even in the smallest way -- there's a sense that you must be destroyed. And the discomfort and the confusion of this old man, as he faces a force of like totally chaotic violence that he has no way of preventing, and all his power is sort of stripped away from him -- that scene takes a lot out of me. So I'm going to put that on the table as my leechy scene for the film.
Banks 13:52
It's such a memorable one. It just, it really is. The dialogue, the pauses, and the silence. [Yeah.] The stare downs.
Evan 14:03
Yeah.
Banks 14:06
I think that, you know, one of the things that Coens have always done well is they find these great dialogue moments, where people like refuse to answer each other's questions. Or get pissed off at someone else's answers, which is such a great way of doing a dialogue is: no, we're not going to answer questions. Like, why would you ask that question? It just, you know, you have these conversations that take such unexpected U-turns and spin out. And I love the way that works with Anton Chigur, who plays by no rules at all. And in fact, you try to even have a rule of conversation, and he's just pissed off at it. Like, how dare you?
Evan 14:45
Well, he's pissed off too, because the guy, the old man, is talking to him in sort of pleasantries and talking about his family and like sharing these things that are sort of personal, but are things that you would share to a stranger, right? They're just sort of polite. And Chigur seems to have no room for politeness. Like that is in principle something wrong for him. It's a form of lying, it feels like. And he can't handle any kind of lying or sort of deviation from the truth. And so the minute this guy gets called out in this sort of BS pleasantry, you kind of know he's doomed, right?
Banks 15:22
Yeah. I don't think he cares about the truth. I think he just cares about his own little world. [Sure.] And he's obsessive.
Evan 15:30
Or his, like, understanding of what is right and wrong in that moment, right? [Utterly unyielding, right?] So he's like, this guy just lied to me. Right? So he needs to face the consequences.
Banks 15:43
Yeah, like I said, he likes no rules, but he has his own rules. [Right!] Right. And so like I would amend what I said by saying that like: but he's unyielding or has no conception of like, of course you do it this way, like these are -- this is how you do that. In spite of the fact that he's insane. But--
Evan 16:03
So Banks, is this your scene as well? Because it was on my shortlist.
Banks 16:06
So this is definitely on my shortlist, leechiest scene. I love that -- that's my favorite dialogue in the movie. But I think I agree with something you were saying earlier, Evan. I love it when -- I think the best scenes in this movie are hunting. I think that it's the scenes where there is the movement, there is the next thing. It is, you know, where's the last man standing? Right? Where is. you know, that -- I think that that's what this movie is about in so many ways. And I think that these character studies of these dialogues are powerful and meaningful. But for me, the thing that I think about with this movie is it's this pursuit of the desert horizon. And the money that's always sort of just beyond reach of safety.
Evan 16:55
Just beyond the air tube that it's hidden in.
Aaron 17:02
Off in, off in the money hid in the HVAC vent of the hotel.
Banks 17:07
It's just beyond the next tentpole.
Evan 17:10
Right. That's a great point. And just to build off that. So for me, there are two scenes: I mentioned one, which is the gas station that Aaron described. The other one is one of the hotel scenes. Again, it's this hunting scene. It's in the hotel near the border with Mexico. And it is a scene where Chigur comes up the staircase. Brolin, or Llewellyn Moss is hidden in his room. He's turned the light off, however, the hallway light outside the room, you can see from the bottom of the door. And you think, "Oh, we're gonna see Chigur's footsteps darken that little sliver of light. However Chigur is too clever. He unscrews the light from the hallway lamp, it becomes pitch black. And that's when he does his surprise attack on Llewellyn Moss. It is deeply leechy: I get tense thinking about it. I was very tense in the moment. I thought for sure this is when Llewellyn was going to die. So that, that for me would be one of my two most leechy scenes.
Aaron 18:12
Yeah, I mean, in terms of the action of the movie -- I mean, this kind of is an action movie, like there's a gun, there's chases -- probably one of the the tenseness moments in the entire film. Because again, when Llewellyn Moss is killed, like we don't even see the act happen. Like [Yep.] the real violent confrontation is the moment you're describing when both Chigur and Moss leave and they're deeply wounded [Yes.] by these gunshots. Before we try and agree upon a scene together and kind of work our way there, I just want to throw out a couple honorable mentions. I mean, oh gosh, the opening act of violence in this film, where Chigur takes first blood: he kills a police officer by strangling him with handcuffs. I mean, the guy's kicking around on the floor, leaving these scuff marks that create this oddly decorative pattern. It's like, [Yes.] it's amazing filmmaking. It's horrific. It's leechy. There are others --
Banks 19:06
Oof -- the expression on his face in that scene. [Oh gosh.] Oh, it'll stick with me.
Evan 19:10
It goes so long, too. You think the scene is going to cut and then it goes another like 10, 15 seconds.
Aaron 19:14
Like, it ends now. Right? It ends now. It ends now. It doesn't.
Banks 19:17
Just in case you didn't know what kind of movie this was going to be.
Aaron 19:20
Yeah, the initiation -- our initiation into the film is a very violent one. It's very difficult. But honestly, I think that some of the scenes where Sheriff Bell, where we're like in conversation, hearing his conversations, hearing him reflect. Like, those are really memorable. And some of them are leechy scenes, too. Like hearing how cynical he's become in his age as he looks upon a world that's that's unraveling. Anyway, that... So guys, what do we think? Do we have a leechiest scene here? Are we with the horizon? Are we thinking about the gas station? Or are we at the old hotel?
Banks 19:56
Oof. I'm gonna have to say, when I think of the movie, I think of scenes like the hotel. That's where I'm thinking. I'm, uh, I'm getting a room.
Evan 20:08
You're checking in; you may not check out. You know, I know I just made the case for the hotel, but I do think... If I was to make the case for the gas station, I would say it definitely does something to my body like the hotel scene. It's very uncomfortable. I also think it embodies the scene, or the theme that Aaron described well, with just No Country for Old Men. Like it is sort of the movie in miniature in that moment. So I... I might be leaning that way, but I don't know. Aaron, do you want to...?
Aaron 20:43
So here I'm definitely biased because I brought up the scene about the gas station. And I want to bring in a quote. I'm quoting from the book here where Chigur is talking about kind of his principles and the way that he thinks about life. This is when he's getting ready to kill Carla Jean, and he does the coin toss for her. And she says, "You wouldn't have let me off no way." Whatever the coin said, you know. And he says, "I had no say in the matter. Every moment in your life is a turning and every one a choosing. Somewhere you made a choice. All follow to this. The shape is drawn, no line can be erased. I had no belief in your ability to move a coin to your bidding. How could you? [Wow.] I think that the scene at the gas station is so core to what the book and the movie are both interested in, which is this idea of chance. And this idea of life being actually immutable and immovable.
Evan 21:37
So necessity and chance in that coin flip, right?
Aaron 21:40
Aha. So this is why I'm pushing gas station.
Banks 21:44
Hey, man, leave it to Aaron to bring in like primary source material, pulling in the literature. I don't know if that's valid leech material for a movie. I mean...
Evan 21:55
Too much homework. You did too much homework.
Banks 21:56
I mean, leeches can't read. I mean, so, what are we trying to do here?
Aaron 22:00
They can watch movies! Because some of them have lots of eyes.
Evan 22:02
Many eyes.
Banks 22:05
Many, many eyes.
Evan 22:07
Well, you've open my eyes to your perspective, and I vote for the gas station.
Banks 22:12
I'm gonna be stubborn. But I do like the gas station. I think it's good. [Okay.] But it's real, it's really good. It's a really good scene. [Yeah.] Maybe, maybe. I'm not gonna say yes. I'm gonna say maybe.
Evan 22:26
Okay, so we have a two to one and a half or-- [Two and a half.] -- two and a half to a half leech vote. Okay, so The Leech-endorsed leechiest scene from No Country for Old Men is the gas station scene. Sounds right? [Sounds right.] All right. [All right.]
Banks 22:46
Well, let's... In case you guys are missing a little bit of characters here, let's talk a little bit about leechiest character. [Yes, yes.] Because we got some really interesting characters in this film. You have, you know, Ed Tom Bell, Tommy Lee Jones's character, this old-time Western cowboy who likes to talk like an old cowboy and does all these, you know, really gives these deep thoughts. You have of course Anton Chigur. Spoilers, that's who I think it is. And you know, you have Llewellyn. Also, I would also have Carson Wells, right? This is Woody Harrelson's character. Who is unprincipled and a bounty hunter. And is also a little bit slimy, like... And so like, you have all these different characters that can go into the mix. Also, Carla Jean Moss is also leechy in her own way because she refuses. She's the only character here who kind of stands up and refuses. And it's really powerful. Anyway. It's Anton Chigur, though. That's great. There's all these good characters, but it's totally Anton Chigur.
Aaron 23:55
Well, tell me why. Somebody tell me why.
Evan 23:57
Okay, I think it's Chigur, as well. And it's kind of a, maybe it's... To me, it feels very obvious in that he's... He takes the most out of me, right? [Okay.] He does a lot of murder. [Okay.] He's, he definitely sticks with me. When I think about this film -- I mean, I saw when it came out, I've seen it multiple times since -- and I immediately think of him. Whether I think about his ideas or what he said, I just think about the brutality of his character. Now, is he somehow salutary? I don't know, and I kind of want to pause on that, actually -- that's going to be a big part of my hirudotherapy. But, you know, on a philosophical level, that's where McCarthy and the Coens seem to be working out some sort of questions about the nature of good and evil, chance and necessity. And so in that way, he's sort of intellectually stimulating for me. So I feel that... I will throw out an honorable mention, though, which is, I believe his name is Ellis? He is Ed Tom Bell's, older sheriff friend that he visits ,or he's friends with his father?
Aaron 25:01
Ellis was the deputy to Ed Tom's grandfather.
Evan 25:06
Okay, so he's a much older man. [Yes, the oldest of men. Yeah.' And he says a lot of leechy things. He gives us his soliloquies, which are leechy. However, all those cats and the fact that he makes coffee once a week, and then reuses the grinds. I think that's the leechy part for me.
Banks 25:27
Who does this?
Aaron 25:28
Like his life... I mean, he is a leechy character simply because of the difficulty and indignity of his life as an old man. Like he lives and in fact he -- part of his agedeness and decrepitude comes from the fact that when he was a deputy, he was shot. And one of the things Ed Tom comes to discuss with him at the end of the film is that the person who shot him is getting released from prison. And the old, old Ellis is like, well, and there's nothing I can do about it now. I'm just old. There's no vengeance. It's no justice. Hey, it's a grim ending for that guy. [Yeah.] Just kind of like wasting away, unraveling, as I've said, in his old home. I want to throw out Ed Tom Bell as a really leechy character, the old Sheriff. I mean, he's, he's a... I get it, I get it Chigur, the most-- See one of the reasons that I was coming into this conversation a little hot is I'm feeling like there's a difference between being leechy and just being memorable. [Okay. All right.] And I think Chigur probably is leechy. But just because someone sticks with you... Yeah, I'm trying to think about the salutary nature, the hirudotherapy, the "I'm offering medicine here in some way." Yeah. And I just think that, as I watched the sheriff, that's -- The sheriff becomes for me one of the emotional cores of the film. And this film is kind of so... So void of interiority and feeling that I'm looking for, I'm looking for a place to leech onto the film. I'm looking for a place to attach, to connect to it, and attach to the blood.
Evan 27:10
Where's the blood in this movie?
Aaron 27:11
Give me the blood, Eli, give me the blood. [Give me the blood.] So the sheriff and like watching him struggle with the events of the film... Like he... And try and process that and, and I want to talk later about the ending, and how his story ends in dreams. And old man musings. I don't know, he sticks with me in a powerful way. But I don't want to overlook...
Banks 27:12
But does he stick with you, as Anton Chigur does? Like we are spending a lot of time like these guys are in the same ballpark. Are they, though? Like I get it, like, he's good. But is he that leechy?
Evan 27:50
Well, this -- Yeah, does he suck the life out of you? That's my question.
Aaron 27:53
Right. That is -- He sticks with me. And he might be good for me. But he doesn't suck the life out of me like Chigur does. You're right.
Banks 28:01
There's a vacuous quality to the leech, right? It has to really pull something out. [Wow. Gosh, yuck.] I don't know. So, I mean, Anton Chigur is, for me, you know, is the figurehead. Like this movie is, in many ways, centered around this character. As much as we follow Llewellyn [Yep.], we're following him to be looking in the rearview mirror to watch out for Anton Chigur. Like, this is a movie with you know, the lens fixed on the rearview mirror because you're dreading Anton. That's where the movie ends. I think that's what it is. I think this is the movie. It's leechy. I hate this guy. I don't like him. Is he leechy?
Aaron 28:41
I want to throw out an idea. I want to throw out an idea here and suggest that the film is kind of like haunted by him. [Yeah.] It's like, you're always looking over your shoulder. Where is he? Where is he? Where is he? Later, I want to propose that the film is also haunted by something else that I'll say more about. But Evan, what do you...?
Evan 29:01
No, I think you're right. And I, but I think... You're looking in your rearview mirror, afraid of Chigur. But for Tommy Lee Jones, he's looking through his windshield trying to find him. Right? And so I think so much of the reflection that Tommy Lee Jones does and the leechy things that he says and reflects on is occasioned by Chigur. So I agree with Banks. I think Chigur is really so central to the things about this movie that are uncomfortable, life-sucking, but also potentially solutary.... I don't know. We'll get into that. But I for me, it's still Chigur.
Aaron 29:33
Chigur is even leechy to the sheriff in the movie. Like Chigur is leechy within the movie to the other characters. [He makes him retire!]
Banks 29:41
He makes him retire.
Evan 29:42
The sheriff will not face Chigur. He refuses to face Chigur. He retires.
Aaron 29:46
All right. [That's right.] I'm persuaded, I'm persuaded it's Chigur. [Okay, yes, we did it!] Right or die, ride or die for Chigur. Oh, literally, right? [All right.]
Evan 30:13
Well, on that note, we should transition to our leech on a beach segment. And I'll just start us off with my leechy, or my leechy beechiest moment. It also centers on Anton Chigur, which is his hair cut. His hair cut makes me laugh. And it's very silly, and they're in a movie that is so bleak, I need some moments of levity, and that haircut just really makes me giggle.
Aaron 30:38
What is that sort of like greasy helmet that he wears? It is so strange.
Evan 30:44
I feel like Carla Jean or her mom like gave him a bowl cut, you know?
Aaron 30:50
They knew him because they were his hairdressers, earlier in life. [There you go.] I was gonna bring up the cats. [Yeah.] I was gonna bring up Ellis's like weird house. It's overrun with cats. I was like, what is happening here? Anyway, I get a weird kick out of that.
Banks 31:11
For me, I find Ed Tom Bell's deputy, this sort of young gun who's just kind of bumbling around, doesn't figure out anything. And literally his entire purpose is just to set up Tommy Lee Jones to give another cowboy one liner. Like that's his purpose.
Evan 31:31
I thought it was a great Coen Brothers echo, too. It felt very much like, "Oh, yeah, not so sure about your police work there." It's like Marge Gunderson talking to her sort of moron deputy.
Banks 31:43
Yeah, her colleagues. Yeah, no, totally. That just cracks me up because he's so enthusiastic and gung-ho and just like, doesn't really know what he's doing.
Evan 31:52
Love it. Love it. Any other places that we go to the beach?
Banks 31:55
Not a lot of beaches in this movie.
Aaron 31:57
There's a lot of sand. A lot of sand. Not a lot of vacation.
Evan 32:01
A lot of sand. Not a lot of beach. All right, well, okay, this is what we've all been waiting for with this movie. We need to talk about the hirudotherapy of this film. It has sucked life out of us. We have learned some things. But has it been good for us? [Hmm.]
Aaron 32:18
I have so many thoughts. Somebody else start before I like launch into a monologue.
Banks 32:24
I'll start with one. I will start with a very controversial "meh."
Evan 32:31
Yes! Hit me.
Banks 32:32
I think it's a "meh" [yes!]. I went into this like, we all like thought, "this is going to be so [leechy]. And I watched this movie and I'm like, uh? This movie didn't do anything so like eloquent or leechy or epic as like, hurt or sucked the life out of me. It just sort of like, stubbed my toe. Because it's hard. And it makes an impact. But I just didn't find myself caring. And I just felt like I was walking it off before it even ended. There's something about this movie that does not hit as hard as I thought it would. And I don't... I just think that I just don't care. It's not that it isn't well told. It's not that it's not a brilliant story. It's not that it doesn't have amazing cinematography and dialogue and acting. [Yes.] I just think that this was one of those things where you had all the right ingredients. And for some reason, you put them together and I just -- compared to all the other Coen Brothers movies -- I just didn't really care. I don't care about Llewellyn. I don't really care about Anton Chigur. I kind of care about Carla Jean Moss, but she's kind of a one-woman show, we don't -- and she doesn't really have the time of day. So by the end of it, I'm like, "Cool. This is artistic. I think I'm gonna go to the you know, art gallery cafe and have a coffee."
Evan 33:59
I would echo that completely. And say, did the movie suck much out of me? I don't know. It definitely did the first time I saw it. [Yeah.] You know, when it came out, it was staggering and I was terrified. But I think the reason for that, as I reflect on it, is it's so plot driven, right? Is Chigur gonna catch Moss? Is Ed Tom Bell gonna catch Chigur? And once you know what's going to happen... So this is my third or fourth time seeing it. But once you know what's going to happen, I actually felt like, like you said, Banks, where is the heart? Where is the soul of this movie? Who can I grab ahold of? You know, honestly, I'm appreciating the craft, like the scene that I described in the hotel. It's incredibly shot. Deakins is a master cinematographer. And yet I don't feel much.
Aaron 34:47
Yeah, I want to talk about some hirudotherapy, but I also want to offer some some insight into what I'm hearing you all say. And I think for me, what I realized as I watched the film is that, yeah, I feel nothing for the characters. There's no emotional connection. Like I said, I'm reaching for the film, asking for someone to care about. It doesn't give it to me. I honestly think that the Coens, in their adaptation of the book -- this is about the book itself and it's about them -- I think it's a failure of the film, personally. [Yeah.] But it also has to do with the source material. So let me just drop a little piece of research on you briefly. I was looking at a book called In the Wake of the Sun. Christopher J. Walsh. It's about the writings of Cormac McCarthy. And he says this about the way that McCarthy writes characters: he says, "One of the novelistic traditions which McCarthy consistently subverts is his apparent refusal to grant any sense of interiority to his characters, a refusal to provide any kind of psychological motivation or ordering principle." As Rick Wallace perceptively notes McCarthy, "Rarely admits us into the sanctuaries of his characters' minds." [Yes, that's right.] And in this film, I'm never in Llewellyn Moss's head. I'm never in Chigur's head. I'm not given admission to the sanctuary. Therefore, I don't care about these people. I don't care about their feelings, their thoughts. Because they're inaccessible to me.
Banks 36:18
The funny thing is, though, we are given these vast monologues. This movie has a lot of those. And also, you know, it's one thing to write something. We're dealing with different media, right? We have music, we have the texture and tone of voice, right? We of course then have all the information telling thousands of words and thousands of pictures, right, that move. Like there's something different there. And so I don't think it's any -- certainly can't say anything against McCarthy or Cormac McCarthy in this -- but we are given a lot of emotional and psychological information from that. And my point is, it's as if the Coens are trying to adapt a book, but how the heck do you adapt that book? Because you need to give more. I feel like I needed more of that interior life to be able to care, to be able to be invested, and to be able to do that. And in the end, what we're left with is a whole bunch of Tommy Lee Jones monologues, confusing Anton Chigur monologues, as well, and a whole bunch of cowboy talk and like machismo bravado. [And murder.] And I'm like, I'm like, this is... There is no heart in that. And maybe I'm too much of a sensitive bleeding heart and, you know, whatever. That's me right now. But where is it?
Evan 37:40
I agree. And I think... So, I'm gonna make a comparison [Yeah, I have one as well] to a film from season one that we did called There Will Be Blood. You may have heard of it. These films were shot on literally the same lot in Texas in a town called Marfa. At the same time.
Banks 37:59
Amazing town, by the way. Visit Marfa, one of the arts capitals of Texas. It's great.
Evan 38:03
Wow. Love it. So they came out the same year. Both nominated for Best Picture, Best Director, and so on. At the time, I thought No Country definitely deserved Best Picture over There Will Be Blood. And There Will Be Blood, like I've said before, I saw it, and was like "Ahh I'm uncomfortable and don't want to watch it again." Fast forward 15 years to now. I think There Will Be Blood is superior as a film and superior in leechiness. [Mm hmm.] And it's not even close for me. In that, There Will Be Blood is ultimately -- it is about the West. They have similar themes, even. Right, the West and the development of, you know, American industry, and all these different things. And yet, There Will Be Blood is a character study, at heart, of Daniel Plainview, of Eli Sunday, of HW even, in some ways. And I feel something -- and Daniel Plainview is a monster. I don't know if he's as bad as Chigur, but he is a kind of monster, an American monster. And yet, like, I have time to think about him and I want to understand him. Chigur is opaque. He is sort of unknowable. He is just, you know, this force of evil. That is maybe philosophically interesting, right? And again, it's all these monologues and plot, but not character development and heart like you're saying, Banks. As opposed to There Will Be Blood, which I think has ideas, but embodies them in people in such a different, more salutary way, I think.
Banks 39:25
I want to see Daniel Plainview v. Anton Chigur. Pneumatic bolt versus bowling pin. Let's go.
Aaron 39:34
Y'all let me jump in here. Let me jump in here, because I actually think something really meta is going on right now. Something really meta that connects to Season One as well. So last season we talked about There Will Be Blood and we talked about There Will Be Blood as kind of an origin story for some of these kinds of extractive capitalism. And then we talked about Parasite as this film that was more about like, how has late-stage capitalism, like, created a world that really hurts people and creates inequality -- like it's capitalism in real time. And I honestly think that this movie fails a little bit too to capture how the book wants to talk about that same question. This is really a story about late-stage capitalism. It's about the border. It's about the drug trade, and it's about what money does to people. Let me just hit you with a quote real quick. This is late in the book where Bell, the sheriff, is talking to this lawyer that he meets at a trial for a criminal. "Finally, Bell asked him if he knew who Mammon was. And he said, 'Mammon?' 'Yes, Mammon.' 'You mean, like God and Mammon?' 'Yes, sir.' 'Well, he said, I can't say as I do, I know it's in the Bible. Is it the devil?' And Bell says, 'I don't know. I'm gonna look it up. I gotta feelin I ought to know who it is.' And the lawyer smiled and said, 'You sound like he might be getting ready to take up the spare bedroom?' 'Well, I said, that would be one concern. In any case, I feel I need to familiarize myself with his habits.'" And then the lawyer asks him, "What do you know about Chigur?" What do you know about the person who blew up that car? And so there's the way in which -- actually, I think Chigur is partly an embodiment of Mammon, and like ultimate greed. [Interesting.] And, but also -- [In the book?] Yes, yes, in the book. And in the film, maybe in a way that we don't fully get to see. But the other thing then, then that's like... So Chigur is like the ghost that is haunting the story. He's the ghost of Mammon, that will stop at nothing, and whose only concern is the money. But the other thing that's haunting this film connects to another thing from Season One, the Vietnam War and Apocalypse Now. I've been wanting to bring this up the whole time. This film is about chance and necessity, it's about greed. But it's also about the time in American life after the Vietnam War where there is a deep sense of moral confusion. Where there is a sense that right and wrong have been blown up and exploded, and that violence has been connected to greed in a way that is now totally disconnected from what is right and just. And I think that Llewellyn Moss is a Vietnam veteran, there are multiple characters in the film who are Vietnam vets. And so, so much of the trauma of Vietnam, and I'm not sure the film captures this, but that trauma is here. And it is part of the unraveling that people have experienced in the past, and that is haunting their present as they navigate the confused world of late-stage capitalism, the drug trade, Western life, etc.
Banks 42:41
So where's the therapy in this? [Huhhh.]
Evan 42:45
I'm with you. I think it's intellectually quite interesting. I was gonna bring in some geopolitics, as well, about Vietnam and about what might be going on with the sheriff and his sort of beleagueredness with having to maintain law and order amidst a world in which, at least in this film, a lot of the characters who are leading to criminality and violence are people of color. Whereas the sheriff is beleaguered by having to maintain order in that world. And so he kind of is like, "Well, I'm gonna retire." I think there's some problematic racial stuff going on there. It's interesting that this movie comes out in '07. I think, the 9/11, War on Terror context informs [Wow!] some of why, maybe, folks resonated with this film in that moment, in 2008. Which maybe dovetails with our Zero Dark Thirty discussion, in some ways. I don't know. [Making the connections.] But I... You know, we could go down that road. And I think it's interesting. But I'm, I'm... Your question is really apt, Banks. I think that's intellectually stimulating in terms of like pulling pieces together of how our world got to be how it is, sociopolitically. And yet, again, like, do I need this movie to understand myself or the world? Or to be a better friend or anything like that? I don't feel that way. In the way that I do about many of the other films we've talked about.
Aaron 43:43
Yeah, I think you're right. As I sort of wax eloquent about all those different elements of the story, I'm not sure I'm given even a scrap of information about how to respond to the world that I'm shown. If I'm looking in a mirror, I'm given nothing, I'm shown no way to sort of like find my way through those difficulties. They just seem all the more impossible by spending time with this story, which doesn't seem good for me.
Evan 44:37
Yeah, I think, to build on that, I don't think -- I think this film is in some ways bad for me in that, if you really sit with Sheriff Bell's malaise, his beleagueredness, his cynicism, then I think that actually sets up a world in which the overwhelming evil that he's so afraid of becomes possible. The idea that civilization has just "gone to the dogs," that it's just bad. It's overwhelming. It's this irrational, indestructible force like Anton Chigur that you can never defeat, therefore, all you can really do is go home and retire. If that's your mindset, and you pull out of engaging the world, that actually creates the conditions in which a Chigur can thrive. So that sort of cynicism in the film, which has been picked up and Christopher Nolan's Batman movies and Zack Snyder's movies, in the new Batman and all sorts of parts of our culture since this film; I think that cynicism ages really poorly, and sets up a really dystopian kind of politics that we're seeing right now. That's really problematic.
Banks 45:39
Man, I feel like this inspires a little bit of cowboy talk to me. No Country for Old Men, or no film for young men. I feel like we're not finding the therapy here.
Evan 45:54
No! Well, yeah. I'm not. Does that mean we should get to our leech rating?
Banks 45:59
I don't know. It means that I feel younger. So that's good.
Evan 46:03
Wow, who wants to put a leech on this?
Aaron 46:06
I'm a one-leecher, guys. One leecher here. I don't think it's... I don't think there's nothing going on here. Because again, this movie is memorable, it has that memorable stick-with-you quality, in some ways. But again, the taking something out of me quality? The doing something for me that might be good for me, might be medicinal? I'm not catching it. Not picking it up. One leecher for me.
Evan 46:32
I'm also one leech. Again, I appreciate the craft. I think it's expertly made. But leech rating is not about the quality of a film. It's about the leechiness of a film. And it sucked the life out of me in the moment when I first saw it, but in subsequent viewings, it doesn't. And yeah, it's a one for me.
Banks 46:54
Gentlemen, we agree. We have, we have reached consensus. [I love it.] I'm also one leech. It sucks a little, it sticks a little, but it just, it just ain't there.
Aaron 47:09
There's a small, piddly little leech. One of the lesser evolved members of the species.
Banks 47:15
This is a leech that's spent a little bit too much time on set in the desert. Kinda shrivelled up.
Aaron 47:21
Proboscis was very short and small. Didn't do a lot of damage.
Evan 47:26
This is where I'll be really interested to see what listeners think about this film. So if you're listening and want to engage with us, please do. Because I know that this is a film that, you know, if I were to bring it up to like my mom, she'd be like, "Oh my gosh, that movie was terrifying." Like I, you know, it's so memorable. And I think it is those things. And I think in our cultural memory, it has this sort of outsize place, you know. I know that some listeners even requested that we do an episode about it, thinking it was very leechy. And I went into this viewing thinking it would be very leechy. But I'm not there. And so listeners, please engage with us on this very question.
Banks 48:02
What did we miss?
Evan 48:03
Yes, yeah, if there's things we missed, maybe we're missing some threads here. So if you would like to reach out to us at the Leech Podcast, you can do so on Twitter @leechpodcast, Instagram theleechpodcast, and our website theleechpodcast.com. On behalf of Aaron and Banks, I'm Evan Cate. This is the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. Thanks for tuning in.
Aaron 48:24
Hey, hey, thanks so much!
Evan 48:27
This episode was hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron Jones. Editing by Evan Cate. Graphic designed by Banks Clark. Original Music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and Music. Production help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind Productions. And equipment help and consultation from Topher Thomas.