The guys decode leechy riddles in a very gloomy Batman film.
After a rather batty Leech Anatomy 101 segment (1:46), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into The Batman’s leechiest themes (6:41), scenes (14:02), and characters (25:37). To get some relief, the guys head to the shore for Leech on a Beach (36:17). They conclude by considering the film’s medicinal qualities (39:54) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film’s leechiness (51:43).
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Evan 00:26
Hello, listeners. Welcome back to the Leech Podcast, most visceral podcast. I'm your host, Evan Cate, and I am joined by my two favorite leechy guys, Aaron Jones and Banks Clark. What's up? [Hey, good to be here.] The Leech Podcast is a show about movies that suck the life out of you. But they also stick with you. And they may even be good for you, just like a leech. Today on the pod we will be discussing The Batman, the 2022 film directed by Matt Reeves and written by Matt Reeves and Peter Craig, as well as cinematography by Greg Fraser. It stars Robert Pattinson and Paul Dano and Zoe Kravitz, among many, many others. It is a fascinating film that we are excited to talk about. But before we do so, we want to remind you that we're always looking to expand the pond here at the Leech Podcast. So please reach out to us @leechpodcast on Twitter, theleechpodcast on Instagram, and theleechpodcast.com, which is our website where you can find episodes, show notes, transcripts, all sorts of great things. Please reach out to us; we'd love to hear your thoughts. So guys, before we dive into this film, we want to take some time to learn more about leeches. Aaron, what have you found?
Aaron 01:46
What will you -- [Teach us about leeches!] teach us about the leeches? Well, this movie, I mean, you may remember in the film that there are scenes with like bats and caves and such. And so I was wondering, do leeches live in caves? Do leeches ever have encounters with bats? Well, I did some digging, some spelunking, so to speak [As you do], and I found [some intellectual spelunking] In the Wuling region of China in 2019, it was discovered that amongst a variety of land-dwelling leeches that live in the Asiatic regions, there is a subspecies called the Sinospelaeobdella that was discovered that "apparently feed blood exclusively from cave dwelling bats." [Whoa!] Fascinating. [There we go.] I shall read on: "The new species roost on damp and dark ceilings of caves." They literally live on the ceilings of caves, just like bats. They have apparently evolved certain "troglomorphic adaptations [Wow] to live on terrestrial rock surfaces, such as depigmentation [they're incredibly pale], a huge caudal sucker [meaning, like, their back sucker that holds them is huge and it helps them root to the wall kind of like a big piece of coral or something. It's real gross.] and large papilla and back sensors." So, but get this, the new species has a higher number of [unclear term] pairs, I don't know, I don't know how to say the word, [unclear term]. What that means is their stomachy parts, they have more, an increased number, to allow for a higher volume of blood storage. Because these bats are hard to catch onto because they, they feed exclusively off like the thin skin on the ankles of the bats. And the bats are like flapping around, they're hard to latch on to, so you don't get to eat that often. So they have to be able to store more blood in their little refrigerator stomach.
Banks 03:46
What?
Evan 03:50
Wow. So let me make sure I understand. [Yes.] [We've got cave leeches.] Yes, cave leeches that are in a symbiotic relationship with bats?
Aaron 03:59
I don't know if the bats are involved. Like, this seems pretty parasitic to me.
Evan 04:05
Oh, a parasitic relationship.
Banks 04:07
You know, they get blood from the bat. And the bat gets anklets. Win win!
Aaron 04:12
The bats fly around with these weird weight, so sometimes they feel like kind of... Yeah, weighed down by the creatures attached. Now, I think the creatures detach before the bats fly. This is odd.
Evan 04:23
Wow. Okay, well, that is beautiful. Thanks, Aaron. I feel like there are some metaphors to be made about this film from this leech anatomy. [There might be.] Yeah, okay. Well, let's get right to it. Banks, what happened in this movie?
Banks 04:45
Absolutely. There've been many, many Batman movies over the past few years. A lot of really good ones. And this movie definitely has its own flavor. This is much more of sort of a noir crime thriller vibe movie. You know, it's always raining and there's sort of, you know, a dark voice narrating in the background. And the focus of the story is not backstory. It's a movie that isn't really about origins. It throws you into the action, so let's jump into it. The movie opens into the murder of a mayor by the villain, the Riddler. We meet the Batman, who then you know, beats up some thugs and then shows up to the crime scene. And then he starts tracking down this trail of this sort of series of murders of really high-profile people of Gotham City. And the Batman is following them, trying to undo these clues, these riddles. The Batman meets the Catwoman, right. He runs into like Carmine Falcone and the Penguin and all these people. And you know these really wonderful cast of people portraying them. And as he follows the trail you know, we learn that Bruce's parents might have been corrupt. You know, Catwoman, Selena, might be Carmine Falcone's daughter. We learn that the Batmobile is fast and sometimes stalls, and that the Batman and Gordon are fairly bad at Spanish. They end up catching the Riddler and it was... Even in Gotham though he reveals that there's one last plan and decides, for some reason, to blow up the seawall. And also to then, that's going to then allow for the attempted assassination of the newly-elected mayor. Batman saves the day, learns a valuable lesson about hope, and him and Catwoman ride into the distance on motorcycles in opposite directions. That's the movie.
Evan 06:42
Oh man. That's amazing. So much to unpack there. So let's dive right into our first leechy, leechy theme of this film. Aaron, what did you...? What leeched onto you?
Aaron 06:56
Gosh, I am really interested in this film's depiction of individualism. [Uh huh.] The way that it depicts, the way that it depicts these lone individuals on quests of angst and vengeance in the search for justice. And so we have all these individuals: Batman, Catwoman, the Riddler, who, who are very much interested in kind of going it alone. And even when -- I mean, the Batman and Catwoman sometimes team up, but they're terrible at doing things together. And in fact, Banks, your joke about them riding off in opposite directions [Yes]... I'll come back to this later, but one of my main critiques of the movie is that it attempts to be a reflection on how it is that people seek justice and to like set corruption right. And it's really bad to try and do that alone. And in fact, the only person... So it's like, individualism that leads, is a road to nowhere in my view is kind of a toxic individualism. [Okay.] And the only person, in my view, who actually finds a real community in this film, finds it in an online community. [Oh, gosh.] You can, you know who I'm talking about. The person who finds community and who finds -- get this: Batman and Catwoman ride off in opposite directions. The real joke when the Riddler is, at the end of the film, and he's a, and there's a person in the cell next to him at the insane asylum. And the person says, you know, [Friend, yeah.] you have, when you have too few of them, they mean more, or something. I can't remember what he says. [Yeah.] And he says it's supposed to be a joker, is the answer. And the Riddler thinks it means "a friend." [Yeah.] And the Riddler makes a friend and Batman is still alone. So whether it's in this online community, or in the insane community, the Riddler has community. And Batman is a, kind of a toxic lone wolf, who gets, who wins nothing, you know. Anyway, I think the way this film explores individualism -- it troubles me, it sticks with me, I don't like it. Yeah, I'm disturbed.
Banks 09:01
You know, I think the movie is unsettling, right? [Yes.] This movie never lets you settle, ever. And you know, I don't know if that's to its credit or not, but you know, there isn't... It's unsettling in some of the imagery, but it's also unsettling in it's like pacing and things like that. Like it really just keeps moving. It's action to action to action.
Evan 09:20
Along those lines, though, I think another individual -- who I actually like in the movie -- but is still going at it alone, in a way, is Jim Gordon. He's the lone good cop, right? And I guess that kind of shifts at the end, but he's this lone, kind of this lone wolf within the police department too.
Aaron 09:35
Well, I... Let me, let me jump in there and just say that there's this like deus ex machina moment where he's been this lone cop all along, everyone's corrupt, no one's working with him. And then when they, when they get Carmine Falcone, like suddenly he has all these good cop friends? hahaha. Where did they come from?
Banks 09:53
Hey guys!
Aaron 09:55
Where did this community come from?
Banks 10:00
It's...it was another online chat community.
Aaron 10:03
Oh, no! I mean, this movie attempts to be such a reflection on all these major cultural themes of the past couple of years, one of which being like, police corruption. And I'm like, wow, that finally, all the good boys in blue show up? Like, that's odd. [Yes.] Anyway, what are other themes on people's minds?
Banks 10:21
Yeah, you know, one of the things that, you know, is another theme that I think they are really... that sticks with me, is... We're thinking about, like, corruption. There's like a pervasiveness of corruption in this movie, except for like, these weird scenes where it's like, "and here are all the pure ones" at the very end. Like, all the characters have something that is kind of unlikable. There are some exceptions. You know, I think that Selena is a character that doesn't, that doesn't... Also, Alfred's another quite likable character, but everyone else does that. And that includes Bruce Wayne, who's like this person who's so rich, but doesn't even give to charity. And, like, doesn't even care that he could be doing orphanages. And I'm like, what?
Aaron 11:07
Yeah, the mayor, the mayor asks him for like, donations. She's like, you're so rich, you're just sitting on this fortune doing nothing. He's like, well, secretly, I'm doing something. But it's like, running around in a suit!
Banks 11:18
What are you doing?
Evan 11:19
He's like, Don't you know that I'm in year two of my experiment, that I'm journaling about? [And listening to Nirvana songs on repeat!] I got the black eyeshadow going.
Banks 11:28
That's expensive stuff. [Yeah.] That's high quality -- he goes through a lot of it. You know, it's a lot of stuff on the eyes there. Take some time. And so there's just this sense of, how does one, you know, be good in a place that is so challenging? And I think that that's a real theme. Unfortunately, in this movie, I think it means that you don't really care about any of the characters a little bit. I know I had a hard time caring. [Yeah.] Like at the end if like when Batman you know, cuts the cord, and is about to like electrocute himself and drown in the water. I'm like, I did not feel any... I was like, okay, cool. I was like, bye! Like, it's not... Like, I get it. Like he was a good character and things like that. But there wasn't that same investment because I'm like, you're also kind of a jerk. Like, you're kind of apathetic, and you're a portrait of the problem of wealth in some ways. [Yeah.]
Aaron 12:17
This movie is very cynical about its protagonists. [Very cynical.] Its protagonist is kind of an antihero. He's not... I think he, I think the movie does have an affection for him. The director wants us to root for him. But there's not a lot to love there. He's real apathetic. He's really antisocial. He does not trust people. And he's not terribly interesting.
Evan 12:40
Agreed. And I think we should definitely table some of this because we're gonna... I think hirudotherapy will touch on some of these pieces. [Absolutely. Absolutely.] Yeah, to pick up a little bit. My theme: I was gonna say darkness, but as we're talking, I want to say gloom is my theme.
Banks 12:58
I love it. Love it.
Evan 12:59
Just to think about those caves you were describing, Aaron. They are dank, damp, and dark. And this movie is gloomy, visually and thematically. And if there is a feeling I have, it is gloom, that the world is bad. It's only going to get worse. The monologues at the end and a little bit -- or sorry, at the beginning and a little bit at the end - they speak to this chaos of the city. And you feel that weight in Bruce Wayne and Batman, his need to be this sort of savior to the city. I think it takes on a weird kind of "Western cowboy needs to redeem the city" kind of thing, which we can talk about more. But this gloominess that pervades the whole film, it's in the music, it's in the rain, it's in the cinematography. I think that's my... the thing that sticks with me about this film. It's the thing that I think will connect to our ideas about cynicism and whatnot. So that's leechy for me.
Banks 13:53
I think it's raining in 90% of the film. The rain budget for this film had to be through the roof!
Evan 14:02
Banks, is there a scene that stands out for you?
Banks 14:04
This movie definitely has it's like... I thought this movie had some really profound moments, profound scenes. You know, one of the things I think is so strong about this movie is its cinematography. And so like this movie is stunning to look at. I thought it was stunning to listen to. It was a feast for the senses in so many ways. You know, the cinematographer you know Greg Fraser, I think just does this amazing job. But for me like the scene that's just really profound is the scene where finally we get to actually interact with the Riddler. [Yeah.] I mean, it's been... We haven't got -- it's been very masked the entire film, right? He's in this sort of weird like, like mask, there's no expression. It's been a one-way communication. Here we actually get an interaction, like this is like the last 20-30 minutes of the film. And you have this dramatic scene between Batman and the Riddler in Arkham Asylum, and you get to really see them go back and forth. And Paul Dano just like is in true form. You know, fans will know Season One Paul Dano Leechiest Character of the Year. [That's right, MVP!]. We still have yet to hear from him. We expect to hear from him and his trophy that he received...
Aaron 15:25
It's an oddly leech-shaped trophy, he may have mistaken for something else. Like I'm...
Evan 15:29
It had a really long proboscis. It was anatomically correct...
Banks 15:32
Oh, gosh. This is getting really out of hand. Anyway. There might be restraining orders involved. I thought that scene was amazing. You could really get to see this character that you've been wondering about the whole time. And the movie, I thought, did a wonderful job of making you crave that interaction, and then you finally get it. And I feel like it delivers: it makes you wonder, it makes you think. And the thing I love about it, is the moment where they say like, the Riddler is like, "You don't understand? Wait, it's so clear. You don't get it?" And then I love that because, I still am like, what did I miss? Like, if it's so clear, like what are the other clues? And I love the way that's done. I think that's so in character for the Riddler and this persona. And I love how it's partially explained, but not fully. [Yeah. That's nice.] And so it really plants seeds. And it does make me curious. And that would be the reason I would watch the film again, would be specifically to look at that trail of breadcrumbs.
Evan 16:36
Right, because you think... and you think in the moment that the Riddler is going to say, "I know Batman that you are Bruce Wayne. [That's right!] Which is the sort of classic, revealing the identity of the superhero thing, which is a key plot driver in like every other Batman movie. But here, he's actually so deluded that he thinks that they're a team, and that Bruce Wayne is different than the Batman, but they've been staging all these murders together. So the Riddler keeps [So well done.] Batman guessing, but he also -- the director is keeping the audience guessing throughout that too.
Aaron 17:09
Well, here's the deal about that moment. I think this scene is so potent because -- coming back to that theme of individualism and community here -- the Riddler has been reaching out to the Batman the whole time. He's been trying to establish connection. He's been trying not to be a lone wolf anymore, but become a co-participant with someone in this big civilization-altering project. And I love the moment... The moment for Paul Dano, for me, where Batman kind of rejects him and says, "I'm nothing like you. I'm not part of this." He says "No, no. Noooo!" I love that moment for Paul Dano.
Evan 17:52
I felt like that was a mixture of the Joker and Bane at once. So it's like, remember the Joker's interaction... [And Eli Sunday.] Or Eli? Hahaha
Aaron 18:06
Do you mind if I jump in on leechy scene here?
Banks 18:08
I want to hear it.
Aaron 18:09
I've got one on my mind that's actually the follow-up... Well, the leechy scene here... So for me, leechy scene, what is the scene that takes a lot out of me and that sticks with me? This film, I thought for the first two hours, I was with this film. Until the film went past the scene that you talked about, Banks. And that's when the film made me upset. And the scene that stuck with me and took a lot out of me: when Joker and his allies trap all these people at the mayoral convention. And they've all agreed, all these kind of like white nationalist terrorists have agreed, they're gonna bring automatic weapons, and they're gonna massacre people. They're gonna butcher people who have elected a black mayor, and who are part of like a democratic society and process. They're going to murder them, like in an active shooter situation. Like watching that kind of drama, which is a cultural horror, watching that drama, like, take place on screen and watching the camera follow these terrorists, these murderers into position and aiming their guns at people. It was horrific for me. I thought, I thought that this film, actually, in that moment, was enacting and inflicting cultural trauma. Or re-traumatizing a culture that has been deeply horrified by the acts of January 6, where people tried to take the democratic process into... Tried to take arms against it and overrule it through extremist violent action. So that film, actually, that scene where the shooters are ready to, again, just attack the mayor and all these innocent people, that horrified me. It traumatized me, honestly, and that was the leechiest scene in the movie. And do I think there's medicine in it? More on that later. But no, I do not. [Yeah.]
Banks 20:05
Yeah. That's it's really... That entire sequence for me... You're right. It does stick with me, but not in ways that I find to be artistic in the fullest sense. Like, I think it's a really challenging sequence. I think that it's evocative. It's certainly leechy in that sense. They're trying to make a commentary on it. That's really, you know, we've done some hard films, but that one is... The cultural moment into which it's trying to speak is very raw, very fresh, and very present.
Aaron 20:35
Yeah, and I'm not sure this film really... It knows how to evoke that moment. And I'm not sure it knows how to speak into this moment.
Evan 20:45
Yeah. Or, I was thinking, as you were saying that, speak or heal. It doesn't know how to offer any kind of healing or any kind of way forward. I mean, there's the sort of... The mayor's speech at the end is like, "We need to help institutions, you know, we need to reinvest." And Batman's, like, "I need to transform." But to me that felt so like tacked-on and hollow, and insufficient, especially given all the ways that the film just trafficked in cynicism throughout. To all of a sudden at the end be like, "No, we need to like invest institutions and people" is like, what? You haven't earned that.
Aaron 21:18
So unearned!
Banks 21:19
But I don't know. I mean, I disagree. You know, I think there's real healing. Batman offered a hand and they were able to lead... get out from under this thing. It was very confusing, very hard to get out from under that girder that was in traffic. He invited them. It was very heroic. That's very profound. They could not have done that on their own!
Evan 21:42
Yeah. I mean, do want to get into this now? Are we gonna get into it now? [Okay, come on, come on.] Let's do it now. Let's do it now. So, yeah, okay. A couple of thoughts on that. A, how many hundreds of people already had drowned under the water? So that sucks. That's terrible. And then the people he leads out, it's like the mayor's little boy. So it's like the little baby Bruce thing, they're echoing. Then it's the mayor, but it's being led by the Batman with his light of fire. [It's like a road flare!] Through the waters at night [Yeah, this Mosaic figure.] like he's Moses. You know, this Batman savior complex going on. And he's like, "I learned I can't just fight people to create justice. I have to heal from my scars."
Aaron 22:27
But here's the thing. This is the whole point, Batman learns effing nothing in this movie. Because by the end, the whole lesson that I wanted him to learn, and that I think he's supposed to learn, is that we can't do this alone. And then Catwoman's like, "Well, are you gonna ask me to stay?" And he's like, "Hmm." He says nothing. Doesn't ask her to stay. Doesn't work together. Rides off alone. He's learned nothing. His character arc is totally flat. [Yes.] He didn't learn some like new lesson.
Banks 22:52
But he learned that hope balances fear, you know? He learned that.
Evan 22:57
That also felt like very sort of, like commentary on like Obama-era politics, which is like "hope" and "change." But it's like the last two minutes of a three hour movie that's like mostly been about lone wolves doing crazy shit, you know? [Absolutely.]
Banks 23:12
"Lone wolves doing crazy shit." [Wow.] Tagline for the Batman given by the Leech Podcast.
Evan 23:17
"Three lone leeches doing crazy shit."
Banks 23:19
That should have been my, that should have been my synopsis. It would've been a lot faster.
Evan 23:23
Well, so hey, can I throw in my scene as well? [Oh, get in here.] I wonder... So on my first watch through this film, I think I would have been right with you with those scenes toward the end. But I rewatched it yesterday. And my leechy scene is actually the opening scene. [Yeah.] And I say that because, as our old friend, cousin Max, once said, "Films teach you how to watch movies through their opening scene." And I think it is not insignificant that the opening scene is from the Riddler's POV. [Yeah.] He is surveilling, he is hiding. He is hidden behind a mask. He commits this atrocious murder. He seems to take this like almost sexual delight in it? [Yeah.] It is shocking. It is painful. It is scary. It feels like, honestly it feels like a David Fincher scene from like Zodiac or, you know, one of those crime thrillers. It's really well staged. It's really scary. And it made me think, Oh, this is like some kind of horror movie/noir crime thing. And, and that's, I think that's actually okay, that can be a very interesting film. But what makes it leechy and makes me uncomfortable is that that sets up the Riddler's POV as the central framing device for the movie. And so the movie actually I think does so much to make you sympathetic to the Riddler, in particular by doubling him with Batman. Like Batman later has a scene where he surveills Catwoman in a very similar, sexualized kind of way. [Yeah, that's true.] And there's all these ways that the Riddler thinks that he's like Batman, and I think the film wants you to think that they're alike. But then the Riddler does this heinous act of terror, as we've described, but the film up to that point had given you this sympathetic lens toward his perspective. And that to me, I think is what's not just leechy, but problematic.
Aaron 25:09
Yeah, I think the film is trying to be interesting and ends up ennobling the perspective of extremists, fundamentalist terrorists, [yes.] etc. That's -- I think it accidentally, in its attempt to be interesting, ennobles that perspective. For me, this film can become, yeah, a recruitment, recruitment tool to the Riddler's cause and for those like him: it enables their perspective.
Evan 25:37
Which is why, to transition, the Riddler is my leechiest character. [Okay, say more, say more. Oh.] It's almost an obvious pick at this point. And just, you know, we got to again mention our love of Paul Dano.
Banks 25:47
Paul Dno, strong [The force is strong with this one] leechy man. The leech is strong with this one. It's a really interesting point. Like he really, like I hadn't thought about it that way. Like, one of the things I've wondered is, what is driving the plot? The only thing it is is the one that opened the movie, and it's the Riddler. It's like the plot kind of wants to center around Batman, but it can't?
Evan 25:53
Just, I mean, just those glasses alone. I mean, there's a lot we can say about him. He's definitely the most interesting. He's a guy who "did his research." He sat around, looked at the news, saw things that others weren't seeing. And he began to act on that research in ways that are very violent and disturbing. To me, he's like, two clicks away from like, a QAnon conspirator, you know? [Oh, yeah.] And I think that, I think the movie intends that. [Yeah. Yeah.] So he's the character that takes the most out of me. He sticks with me. I don't know if there's things that are good for me. We'll have to discuss that. But I think he instantly is the one that drives the movie and sticks with me.
Aaron 26:48
Because he's so uninteresting. Yeah.
Banks 26:49
And so it does.
Evan 26:50
He's a nothing, he's a cipher. [Yeah.]
Aaron 26:52
He himself is someone who's had a trauma and like, he's lost his parents. Just just like the Riddler, by the way. They're both orphans. "You're an orphan" -- just throwing that out there. A little There Will Be Blood action. Uh huh.
Evan 27:07
Well, along those lines, I actually found that to be a really compelling moment, when the Riddler says "Bruce Wayne, you're not an orphan." Like yeah, your parents died, but you lived in like your... so much wealth in the tallest building in the city, looking down at all of us. Like you don't know what it's like to actually be an orphan. And like, I think that's actually true. Descriptively true. But functionally within the story that gives you a lot of sympathy for the Riddler. And they make moves like that throughout the film that ultimately makes you be like, "You know, the Riddler he's been through some stuff and yeah, maybe he made some bad decisions, but I see where he's coming from!"
Banks 27:07
It's like a "Thanos is right" moment, a little bit. Like, yeah, I get ya!
Aaron 27:15
Batman... Uh, gosh, yeah. He's just this wealthy technocrat who tries to solve the world's problems through like fast cars, and like expensive gadgetry that lets him use, like contact lenses that record things to his phone. Like cool, dude. Like, that's gonna help you save the world. The only thing that separates him from the Riddler is that he's like, "Well, I'm gonna change the world without killing anyone, without using guns. I don't mind to like, break their bones, hurt them, and use fear as a tool. But I won't use a gun. And I basically, I'll be impregnable to bullets myself... and that's how I'll change the world." Yeah, I mean, the Riddler is just willing to use political violence. And Batman uses political violence. I mean, he does violence from the shadows. I think hmm. I'm wondering about other characters here, notable mentions. I think, sure, the Riddler: clear leechiest character here. But I'm just wondering: a character who jumps out to me a lot, whom I remember, like some of those crime bosses stick with me a little bit. Like the Penguin, for example. The Penguin, which, by the way, is the Penguin played by Colin Farrell?? Am I crazy here? [Who knew!] This is my favorite Colin Farrell role of all time! Like I'm normally way out on him.
Evan 27:37
Oh, no, he's great, man.
Aaron 27:44
No, no, he's not. He's such a loser. Dude, we got to do the New World sometime. Oh, which is Terrence Malick, TMac. Who -- yeah, more on that later. But I thought the Penguin was just a stunning character. Like, so just like, greasy. So gross. So compromised, in bed with everyone. And to kind of... Yeah, so embedded and entangled in that criminal system. It's like, that man, if you tried to ask him to get free, he wouldn't even know what free was. He would say "What are you talking about? Like, this is my world. This is my native element." So I found him very memorable as someone... Again, whose corruption, to go back to that theme, Banks: he's just so entangled in the net of it. [He personifies it.] Yeah, maybe that's the stick-with-me quality. He personifies that.
Evan 29:49
That nose is gonna stick with you.
Aaron 29:52
More so than Falcone, would you say? Like, I love both those characters actually.
Banks 29:56
Great noses in this movie. Really, really unsung quality in this movie.
Evan 30:04
For some reason, Falcone didn't quite work for me. I felt like... [Say more.] [The Jesus didn't work for you?] I love Turturo, come on. But there was a strange way in which his cadence reminded me of Adam Sandler in Uncut Gems. So I got really distracted by that. And he didn't feel as menacing to me as I think I expected. But I'm willing to be wrong on that take.
Aaron 30:25
I think he's menacing for the ways that he chokes women? [Oh, yes.] I mean, like, the fact that he killed Catwoman's mother in the same way he's attempting to kill her at the end. There's this weird doubling there that's really gross, really weird. Where he is someone who, who kind of is like, "Ah, I don't want to have to be violent. But if I have to be... I'm very good at it and have no heart or conscience." And I mean, essentially like he's the kingpin, he's the one who rules the city it's implied. [Yeah.] Or pretty well stated there in the film. And someone who is also... Has apparently, like, ratted out fellow criminal kingpins. He's become the Falcon. The "rat with wings." Anyway, I also, I mean, that's a pretty brilliant device, by the way, that weird Spanish misunderstanding. Like, is it a bat? Is it a stool pigeon? Is it a falcon? [Really?] I can, I enjoy? [I thought it was really contrived.] Was it too contrived? I mean, sure. It does feel kind of like a bad 50s noir novel, I'll give you that. But I'm kinda here for it. Yeah.
Banks 31:31
I mean, I thought, I will. What I will say, [Oh!] you know, well, okay. We'll get to it on Leech on a Beach. We'll get to it on Leech on a Beach.
Evan 31:38
Oh, yeah. There are a couple LOLs for Leech on a Beach.
Banks 31:40
We got some LOLs in this movie. But there's one shot I want to put. Like, I think that this movie. So you know, I love Batman. Favorite superhero, for me. And I don't really have favorite superheroes. I just really like Batman. And like, I love the idea of the city of Gotham. I always have. And like one of the things that like, you know, I love... Like Star Wars has the character of the Millennium Falcon, like Firefly has like Serenity, the ship has that. I think that like the Batman movies -- like the city of Gotham is almost a character in and of itself. I'm far from the first person to ever say something like that. But the portrayal of Gotham in this movie, I loved. The aesthetic of it, the feel of it, the relatability of it. The fact that it felt like, you know, I live in New York. So it felt like New York, it felt like Chicago, it felt like a real city. And it felt corrupted, it felt like there were real issues that were really faced and it felt just awesome. And scary and threatening, and all those things. And so it also felt like a place that I wanted this, like I wanted it to do better. I wanted to see it saved. Like that care -- if we can call Gotham a character -- I don't know if we can or not.
Aaron 33:02
Let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah, let's do it.
Evan 33:04
Yeah, no, I love that. I love it.
Banks 33:05
I'm gonna say, I really liked that. And I have not seen anything portray a city as a character better. And I really loved it in this sense. So I'm gonna throw out the city of Gotham, as a character. Really give a shout out to the cinematography and all the aesthetics that are just stunning. The atmosphere of this movie is just so good: so much gloom. But also character and personality. So I'm gonna throw that out there as something I really appreciated.
Evan 33:37
So, along those lines, at first, I had this kind of like, Why does Batman live in a gothic cathedral? Was a question I had. And then like, why is this funeral in the most like ornately Gothic place? And then halfway through my second watch, I was like, Oh, Gotham. Gothic. I get it.
Banks 33:56
There you go.
Evan 33:57
And I thought that was silly. But then I realized, no, I think Banks, you're right. Because I mean, so many Gothic novels and Gothic literature is about this sort of recognition that civilization, and the promises of sort of perfecting civilization, it usually fails. You know, human beings are fragile, and they mess up, and they are ill-intentioned and self interested in all these things. And Gothic novels are about the recognition of that sort of wildness inside the human heart that is always sort of going to like destroy from within all of our attempts at order and civilization. So I think, I think -- I'm so glad you brought up this as a character because I think that character is central to the conception of the film.
Aaron 34:38
Here for that. So I'm gonna go, Riddler leechiest. Gotham City, second leechiest. Penguin third.
Evan 34:48
Can I? Well, along those lines -- I agree with that take. Can I add another honorable mention? [Oh.] I want to put Thomas Wayne on the table.
Banks 34:56
Ooh, I like that idea.
Evan 34:59
I think he... I think he is the ghost that haunts this film. In classic Gothic literature fashion, there is a ghost haunting this city. And he lives in the abandoned orphanage in video. And he lives in the mind of the Riddler and in the mind of Batman, as this presence that had been held up as this beacon of civilization. But what we come to find out is that he himself was compromised, as well. I actually loved this as a storytelling move. [Yeah.] I haven't seen Batman movies do this before. [I liked it.] There are other choices I didn't like, but I really thought this was a way to not rehash the origin story. But to deepen and complexify the origin story of Batman in a way that made Thomas Wayne actually kind of interesting [Absolutely], complicated, and compelling. So, Thomas Wayne.
Aaron 35:50
I love that as an honorable mention.
Banks 35:53
I mean, they are a wealthy family, you know, and I think that, you know, one of the things I wish they had done more is really talk about sort of the traveling habits of the Wayne family. It makes me wonder if they ever traveled to, you know, places that were a little bit less rainy.
Evan 36:09
You mean more tropical, like on a beach?
Banks 36:11
Yeah, a little more sun, maybe?
Aaron 36:14
Give us a little vacation.
Evan 36:15
Yeah, all right. Well, I think it's time for a little Leech on a Beach. Which, y'all, we might need to spend some time here given the gloom of this film.
Aaron 36:24
Get a little sun therapy in here.
Evan 36:26
Okay, so I have, I have one Leech on a Beach moment. So it is -- speaking of the Penguin, our third leechiest character [Heyo!]. When he gets captured by Batman and Lieutenant Gordon,
Banks 36:41
Great scene! It's such a great scene!
Evan 36:43
He says, "What the hell is this? Good cop, batshit cop??"
Banks 36:52
Guana cop!
Evan 36:54
That was really funny. And then what I noticed on the second watch was Batman and Gordon realize they've messed up something, so they leave him. And but his legs are tied. And he has to try to walk out, but he waddles... like a penguin. I thought that was funny.
Banks 37:10
So good! Oh, just that whole scene where they correct his Spanish. I just think that's great. Like, oh, I just think that, just that whole scene just kills me. It's so good.
Aaron 37:25
This movie does have a sick sense of humor.
Banks 37:26
It does. My favorite scene I'm not sure it was meant to be funny. [Oh!] But I laughed so hard. [What is it?] And so, there's this scene where they, you know, they go to this old warehouse and they find that this, you know, this drug is like being manufactured. And that there's this huge fraud around this, you know, past drug bust and it was just a big, you know, fraud and they're doing this. And there's this huge shootout that's about to happen. And then, it's a moment, it's classic. It's in every Batman movie. You have the reveal of the Batmobile. [Yes.] It's a badass looking Batmobile, too. It's looking good. And it goes, you see it start up, it has this cool like, you know, like flame shooting out the back. It starts and like all the bad guys stop and be like, what is it? And you look and the car stalls!
Aaron 38:14
Just a moment.
Banks 38:16
Watch the scene. It like goes and then it just turns off and nothing happens with the rest.
Aaron 38:23
But it kicks back on.
Banks 38:24
Was this like an editing mistake? Like, what is this? Like? The car just stopped? Was that supposed to happen? It was just... It killed me. I was laughing so hard.
Evan 38:35
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. And like that moment where he's like flying after he's being chased by the cops. And he like, opens the parachute and it hits the overhang, and he like crashes to the ground. I mean... [You could totally survive that.] I was like, Yeah, he'd be dead.
Aaron 38:49
Are they winking at us? Like this is absurd. It's all so serious until now. Why so serious? Anyway, the moment for me that I really like is the moment where like, there's so much weird like gross rat imagery. And I'm like, I'm always expecting like more rats and more gross, dirty rats. And then I'm really pleased at the moment late in the film where they hear this rat in the cage. And despite all my rage, I'm still just a rat in a cage, by the way. I just want to add that.
Banks 39:19
I'm just a rat in a cage. [Speaking of the 90s!]
Aaron 39:23
They open the cage, and it's a bat instead of a rat. And lo and behold, Batman looks down right at its ankle. And he sees a leech on there! Hahahaha! (No that's not true!)
Banks 39:37
Oh, that was good, that was good.
Evan 39:38
I mean, the leech on its leg is like the Riddler, who is leeching off of Batman. Who thinks it's a symbiotic relationship, but it's actually parasitic.
Aaron 39:49
Oh, wow. [Ooo, ooo.]
Evan 39:54
All right, well, that was another great segment of Leech on a Beach. Why don't we go to the therapy within the film, the hirudotherapy. These moments of leech films that might have done us some medicinal good. Does anybody have one from this film?
Aaron 40:10
Hmm, I do want to jump in here. Gosh, I have a lot of thoughts. Okay, so my reflection on hirudotherapy, actually, I have to go back for a minute to the Chris Nolan Batman movies. [Yep.] And, and also to There Will Be Blood, briefly. Because I think that the Nolan movies, There Will Be Blood. These are early 2000s movies. Am I right? Yeah. Well, '07, '09. When? When did... When was, When did those Chris Nolan movies come out? Is it around that time?
Evan 40:42
I think Batman Begins is like --
Banks 40:44
Right around there.
Evan 40:46
'09 maybe? '06?
Aaron 40:46
I have this sense that... So, my theory here is that Batman in this weird way since Chris Nolan has become this format for like, the culture to like process parts of itself. Oddly enough. Like I was talking earlier about how this film attempts to mirror and reflect on certain like cultural elements and difficulties. [Yeah.] And we were talking about...
Banks 41:13
And like the Joker did that as well.
Aaron 41:15
Well, that's what I mean, like, definitely, yes. [Yeah, absolutely.] The Joker brings in these elements of like terrorism and chaos and these fears that were like kind of so elevated after 9/11. And these various like terrorist attacks that are again, continue to be depicted in Zero Dark Thirty from last season. And, and in this odd way, Batman became the superhero franchise through which all this like weird cultural processing and mirroring was happening. And this film seems like an attempt to do that again. And Evan, you and I were chatting about, There Will Be Blood a little further. And how it was this, this post-9/11 film...
Evan 41:54
Are you thinking No Country or There Will Be Blood?
Aaron 41:56
I keep getting it wrong. I mean, No Country, No Country for Old Men, excuse me. And No Country for Old Men as this post-9/11 film. Will you remind me what you were saying about Chigur? Do you remember this?
Evan 42:08
Yeah. So I felt like in No Country... It is a movie about this sort of overwhelming evil, that no one has any idea of how to deal with. It's sort of not understandable. It can't be killed. And it's just this unstoppable force that's wreaking havoc on civilization as we know it. It just so happens that Chigur is perhaps Hispanic? He's a person of color, it seems like. And there's... If there is a narrator of that film, it's Tommy Lee Jones, this old sheriff, who I think stands in as sort of this white law man trying to bring order to a chaotic world that's "gone to the dogs," right? There's a lot of dead dogs in that movie. [Oh jeez.] And it made me think -- and this is maybe too simplistic -- but it did make me think that in a post-9/11 world, is Tommy Lee Jones there something like George Bush, or the sort of white West trying to exert order on brown peoples through the War on Terror or at the Mexican border. You know, that was kind of where we went in that episode. It's maybe simplistic, but I think there is something there.
Aaron 43:20
Yeah. And I mean, and the, with the possibility, right, that that Chigur is in some ways an Osama bin Laden type character in this odd way. [Yes.] And the question is, like, who is like the ultimate villain that society can imagine? Like, who is society truly afraid of? And then the Joker, you know, becomes that person in the Batman franchise. And so this, these insights about like the Joker and Chigur, like thinking back about those villains, and then looking at the Riddler here. We talked about in No Country that Chigur -- we never get to see really inside him to see his feelings, his organizing principles, other than the weird logic that he says when he tries to account for himself. But here again, what I want to show is different about this movie is that, as you said earlier, it takes the perspective... Like it takes the move that Nolan made with the Joker, where we get to like spend a little more time with some of the Joker's like misdeeds or with his perspective. But here we are immersed into the perspective of the Riddler. [Yeah.] We are sunk into his experience and his world. Chigur, we get none of it. The Joker, we get some of it. The Riddler, like, we almost know him better than we know Batman. [Yeah.] We are asked to and invited into his life and his experience. And I think, as opposed to being a medicinal experience, I think it's actually poisonous. [Toxic.] I think it's actually... That this movie is not medicinal. I think it is poisonous. And it was reminding me that I was reading an article recently about... People were trying to do a study with leeches. [Oh, and wow.] And they were trying to see, they were trying to see if--
Banks 45:11
In true Aaron form here, I love it.
Aaron 45:13
If people's reaction to the way leeches were used medicinally on them was all in their heads. So they were trying to find a way to use like a placebo fake leech on people. [What?] So there was this company designing like an artificial leech that people would think was a leech on them. But it wasn't. [What?] And that's what I think this effing movie is. It's trying to be like leechy and speak into the culture and offer some kind of answer. And it's an effing fake.
Banks 45:48
It's a fake leech.
Evan 45:49
It's a fake leech.
Aaron 45:49
It's a placebo. It gives you nothing. Except more crisis and more cynicism and more pain. That's my take.
Banks 46:01
Yeah, I mean, the one thing I think, you know, I think that there was a really medicinal moment for me in this movie. It was really profound. It was right at the very end. That's it. Then it ended.
Aaron 46:19
Riding motorcycles through the graveyard?
Banks 46:23
Oh, no, no, no. The moment that the credits started rolling. [That was the medicine. hahaha!] This movie did take something out of me. And it was time. [Ohhhhh!] It was a long movie. [Oh, wow.] Like, no, like it was a long movie. I will again say like, there are things about this movie that are stunning. [Yes.] I still don't know if it knew what it was trying to do. You know, I think that you're right. Like there is an icon, like I really love what you're saying. Like there's a way that this theme of Batman, there's something relatable about this really simple... One of the original superheroes that in other ways, like no other superhero has like captured the imagination in the same way. Why is it that Batman movies have become this mirror in way that others hasn't? And it does also kind of say, to make a movie here, you have to do more than just like Batman Forever tried to. Right? Like, no, like, you really have to go in. Christopher Nolan had a reason for doing the trilogy. And it has something to say. The Joker certainly had that. [Yeah.] What was this movie trying to do? I'm not sure if it knows. [Yeah.] Or if it does, no, I'm trying to find it and I can't quite figure it out. And to me, it makes it feel a little bit like those leeches on the ankles of bats. It's like trying... It's like taking something that we all love, knowing that we're going to watch it. And instead it just took my time. And I'm like, kind of annoyed at it for that. I'm not gonna lie. I love, like, I will say, the fact that I got to hang out with Gotham City, that character? That made me happy. But yeah, that's where I put it on the hirudotherapy. I don't I don't see a lot of that here. I don't see a lot of anything here in the same sense that that. So I don't know. We'll do that when we talk about leech ratings. We can talk more.
Evan 48:17
Yeah. So I'm actually right with you guys. I was thinking this film is deformative of a politics of the common good. There is stuff that's interesting, in that, like, it recognizes there is corruption in the system. And it goes all the way down, which I think that's true in a lot of ways. However, the... You know, all this talk about the renewal of the city, how corrupt that was. It's... There's oddly like no mention of race in the film. And no mention of race in the city until Catwoman, she mentions white privileged guys, at one point. It felt tacked on.
Aaron 48:53
Real tacked on. I mean, they made the mayoral candidate who wins, they made her a black woman. I think that was very symbolically done. And maybe overdone. Yeah.
Evan 49:02
So I just felt like it was, it was a critique of corrupt elites and the system. However, the sympathetic figures -- the people who seem to be left out of that society -- is like that, you know, everyday white guy at the funeral or the white guy who they unmask at the end. So it's, it's still a pretty white nationalist, white populist critique of elites. That to me, I mean, maybe a lot of superhero movies do this. But it did seem to ignore, like, actual urban renewal programs in America are really complicated and complex and have to grapple with class and race is such a more robust way than this film, I think, gives space to. And what it then does is create a cynicism, I think, that you know, prizes the individual, prizes vengeance and violence, with this assumption that the world is just utterly chaotic. And I think it makes it hard to actually like create a politics of the common good, if that's your conception of the world.
Aaron 49:57
Yeah, or anything to organize aound, right? There is no, there is no way to cooperate [Yes.] in this film. It's actually anti-cooperation, it seems like. Batman's like, well, you can follow me out of here. But then I'm just going to disappear again. I'm not really going to... Not going to be part of the process. [But he's going to write about it in his journal.] And then listen to Nirvana again. Yeah. I think one of the things that the film is trying to reflect on is the way in which there is often a fine line between heroes and villains. [Sure, sure. Yeah.] That the resemblances are sometimes pretty on the nose. Pretty shocking, actually, in this kind of really narrow margin by which Batman differs from the Riddler is uncomfortably narrow. As he learns when he hears his own phrase mirrored back to him from a white nationalist, active shooter who says, "I am vengeance." [Yeah.] Which is what he said just earlier. And you're like, he's like, Oh, oh, no. I am the exact thing I'm trying to destroy, or to stop.
Evan 51:01
Well, and to come back to like, my theme of gloom. Like there's a lot of imagery in the film about this light in the darkness. You know, so many scenes... Like early on, when he's on his motorcycle, driving through that tunnel, the light in this really dark area. And then when he has the flare at the end of the film. So many scenes are about light in darkness. Which, you know, that's biblical. And yet, the Batman light shining in the darkness is still going to kick your ass. He's, he's the light in the darkness who is not the Prince of Peace! And so in, like, what way is he actually going to be different at all from the darkness and gloom that he's trying to change?
Aaron 51:39
He is not an antidote to this poison.
Evan 51:43
So how many leeches are we giving this movie.
Aaron 51:45
Yeah, I could, I feel the momentum hurtling in that direction. Oh, geez. I'm not gonna go first.
Evan 51:54
I'm gonna say one, although I'm tempted to zero. But I'm gonna say one. And I want to quote AO Scott, who had a great review of this film. He described the "white savior grievance that has shrouded Batman." And he said, "Maybe it shouldn't have been so difficult. And maybe the slog of this film will serve a therapeutic or liberatory end." I find very little therapeutic or liberatory ends. But it has occasioned quite a bit of conversation for us. So I'm gonna give it one leech.
Aaron 52:26
And I think... what I've heard that, maybe I'm wrong here, but I heard that the director signed on to do like multiple projects. So maybe we're only getting the kind of over-simplistic, unhappy ending kind of Batman for the first movie. Maybe productive responses and reinventions of Batman await us still, in future takes. That's a generous read.
Evan 52:52
In six more hours?
Aaron 52:53
In six more hours, yeah. I heard there may even be like a show. I'm not sure. Anyway, that's a lot. Ah, well for me, like, I walked out of that film, feeling like so much had been taken out of me. I kind of felt eviscerated by it. I was angry. I was upset. I was sick to my stomach because of the way that they, in my view, entirely mishandled their critique. I mean, was it an attempted critique of this like extremist violence? I was sick afterwards. I'm gonna give it two leeches for that. Strike two, take two away for the poison, but I'll give it two leeches for taking a lot out of me. Like and like I said, I feel like my trauma, like from viewing January 6, teaching about January 6, seeing the horrific imagery. I... It took a lot out. That's where I'm at.
Evan 53:47
Do it take more out than No Country for you?
Aaron 53:48
Oh, a lot more! No Country, I was like, uh, shrug. I mean, bad guy wins. Good guy goes home and gives up. Didn't, didn't faze me. I mean, I'm deeply interested in No Country, as you know, like, and especially the book, but, um. [Yeah, fair.] This film did something much worse to me. It hurt me.
Banks 54:10
Yeah, leeches are supposed to numb, if I recall. There must be a numbing agent. I am also very tempted to give it zero, but I think that it deserves, it deserves a leech. Yeah, I'll give it a leech. Yeah, I'll give it a leech. I think that the, you know, that's not just a nod to the quality of the aesthetics, the, you know, the score, the cinematography. I think that it's also like, there's some really like, I thought that Paul Dano's performance as the, as the Riddler was profoundly leechy. Absolutely. I thought that, you know, there are things with this movie that do stick with me. There are some scenes that are really striking. And I think that they're just striking just by their own merit. And they're striking in ways that are, that do succeed. Had they been weaved into a hole that had been a little bit more coherent, that had... I still think that this movie might have been trying to do something amazing. And I, much like the Riddler, you know, said like, "You couldn't figure it out?" I wonder if, whether it was in the writing or in the editing or if it was just somewhere, there's still some like kernel or some riddle that this movie was out to solve. And I think that that you can see glimpses of those clues and I think they definitely deserve it. They deserve the one leech.
Evan 54:10
Yeah. Great. Well, riddle me this, listeners: how many leeches did you give this movie?
Banks 55:44
I'm curious you know, we were kind of... I want to know from our listeners, like what... Are we missing something here? Because I feel like we, you know, I think me especially have been kind of like critical of this film. But I want to like, what have you guys liked about this film? What are the things that deserve far more credit than we've given?
Evan 56:00
Yes, great question. Please, if you have questions, thoughts, commentary, please reach out to us on Twitter @leechpodcast, on Instagram, theleechpodcast, and of course our website, theleechpodcast.com. Thanks as always for listening. It is a pleasure to be with you. We are the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. For Aaron and Banks, I'm Evan Cate. Thanks so much. This episode was hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron Jones. Editing by Evan Cate. Graphic design by Banks Clark. Original Music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and Music. Production help by Lisa Gray of Sound Mind Productions. And equipment help and consultation from Topher Thomas.