The guys travel to Ireland to consider the tormented saints and sinners of John Michael McDonagh’s 2014 film Calvary.
After considering leech phenomena in Ireland (1:28), Aaron and Evan dive into Calvary’s leechiest themes (5:56), scenes (12:58), and characters (19:53). To get some relief, the guys head to the shore for Leech on a Beach (29:02). They conclude by considering the film’s medicinal qualities (34:20) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film’s leechiness (45:15).
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Evan 00:10
Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. I am your host, Evan Cate, and I'm joined by a whiskey priest in a sports car, Aaron Jones. What's up my man?
Aaron 00:22
Right here, my brother, right here.
Evan 00:25
Ahh, well, sadly our favorite art collector, Banks Clark, was unable to join us for this episode. But we look forward to him joining us again soon. And we will try to channel his energy and spirit as much as we can into this episode. As always, the Leech Podcast is a show about movies that suck the life out of you. But they also stick with you. They may even be good for you– like a leech. Today we'll be discussing the 2014 film 'Calvary,' written and directed by John Michael McDonagh. It stars Brendan Gleason, Chris O'Dowd, and Kelly Reilly. Now before we dive into this film, we want to remind you that we're always looking to expand our pond. So please reach out to us @leechpodcast on Twitter, @theleechpodcast on Instagram, and theleechpodcast.com. With that business out of the way, Aaron, I think it's time for us to learn a little bit more about leeches.
Aaron 01:28
Time for me to teach us about the leeches. Yes, my friend. As you know, I often like to tie in our Leech Anatomy segment– pun intended on segment– to the content of the film that we're watching. And, of course, I had to ask myself: What about leeches in Ireland? [Oh, yeah.] You're gonna find that if you Google leeches in Ireland, almost immediately you see this very ancient article from 1898. 1898!
Evan 02:02
Is that the oldest Leech Anatomy article we've ever had?
Aaron 02:04
This is the oldest Leech Anatomy content thus far in the show, and I'm looking at a publication called 'The Irish Naturalist,' [okay], their article from 1898 called "The Irish Freshwater Leeches." And as I peruse the article, I found something very surprising that I had never encountered in my study, my wide study of leeches– [Oh, tell us!]– about a particular group of leeches from the family, the Rynchobdellae family, Rynchobdellae. They're one of the two main groups of Irish freshwater leeches, and let me quote from the article: the first of these types, smaller, "they are unprovided with jaws," meaning they don't have teeth. "And they possess an exertile snout or proboscis," meaning a retractable proboscis.
Evan 03:02
Exertile?
Aaron 03:03
Exertile. This is– the next point is the one that gets me: quote, "Their blood is colorless." If you Google these leeches, you will see they don't have hemoglobin or iron in their blood. So they're very pale, like pale white leeches with white blood in their blood vessels. [Wow.] They are snail leeches, they suck the blood of water snails, and quote, "The muscular proboscis can be pushed through the tissues of the victim and the nourishing juices pumped out."
Evan 03:37
Wow. Those nourishing juices. [haha!]
Aaron 03:42
So I just had to go there for, you know, the white-blooded Irish leech, the Rynchobdellae family. That's what I have for today.
Evan 03:51
Wow. Okay. Well, I look forward to incorporating this into our analysis very soon. But before we do so, we do want to bring a spoiler warning right here at the start, we will talk about the plot and the outcomes of this film. And very important for this movie, I think we should also give a content warning. There are very difficult, painful, traumatic things that are discussed, particularly around sexual assault. And so we want listeners to be aware of that before we begin, and please take care of yourself. So this movie is, in some ways, a very simple movie. It's about a priest who is told on a Sunday morning confessional that the person confessing to him is going to kill him in a week– on the beach, a week from Sunday.
Aaron 04:46
Sunday next.
Evan 04:47
Sunday next. That's right. So this priest then gets to decide what to do, and the whole film are those seven days where he meets with parishioners, talks to other priests, talks to other people in the town that he lives in, his daughter visits, and so on– always with this threat looming and hanging over all of his interactions. And as a viewer, you're wondering, 'Oh, I wonder who this person was; probably someone in the town.' And so it takes on the quality of almost like a whodunnit, but more of a 'who will do it,' right. [yeah] It's a sort of mystery, almost detective story, but with this really lovely priest at the center. And to spoil it, he does actually get killed at the end of the film, by this man, Jack Brennan, played by Chris O'Dowd. And of course, the priest is played by Brendan Gleason. His daughter, Fiona is played by Kelly Riley. And there are many other excellent actors in the ensemble. But that's what happens in this movie. It is intense. And there's so much to unpack. So, Aaron, is there a theme, a leechy theme from this movie that you want to highlight?
Aaron 05:55
Oh man. I mean, can I just double or triple the content warning on this film? [Yes.] I would just want to double and triple it. I watched the film probably eight years ago. And rewatching it this time? I almost couldn't keep watching after the first five minutes. [Yep.] Because of the content of what is said in that confession box. Where, yeah, the person who wants to kill this priest is someone who as a child experienced sexual abuse at the hands of a priest. And it is recounted in graphic and very difficult terms. And I felt that was excruciating to overhear, the way that it's phrased and delivered in the film. And what I realized, this connects to my theme for the whole film actually, is that the the whole idea of torture, and torment is at the core of this film. Let me say more. I'm going to quote the very end of the film, where Jack Brennan, the person who said those things in the confession box, says, and I quote, that he "endured a hell of a lot of psychological and physical torture." And I feel like, I mean, his reason that he wants to kill a priest is because he endured torment. Torment. And I think to experience this film is a kind of torment. And also, one of the things that I find so insufferable about this film, is that Brendan Gleason's character, Father James, he's being killed because he's a good priest. [Right, right.] Because he has an altar boy whom he treats well, and whom he has just a healthy, affectionate relationship with. And everyone in this town is constantly tormenting him. The priest who cares for them, is trying to do his best on their behalf, and they are always kind of spitting in his face, making fun of him, undermining his work. And it's painful to watch his attempts to do right by them and to watch him constantly rejected [yeah] in these almost humiliating ways.
Evan 08:28
Very– I mean, very humiliating, I would say. Frequently.
Aaron 08:31
So I just think the whole idea of torment– to watch this film is a torment. There's a tormented victim at the heart of this film. And then the priest himself is being tormented by those around him. That's, I mean– that's a leechy theme for me. [Yeah.] It takes so much out of me to experience this film.
Evan 08:51
Yeah, I hadn't thought of that word. But it's a really good through line between Jack Brennan's experience, the behavior of the people in the town, and the viewer's experience. All different kinds of torment, of course, [yes, yes], but I do think that is a theme that runs throughout. Well, I chose a slightly different tack for my theme, which is– my theme is forgiveness. [Wow. Wow.] And I chose it because in some ways, it's such a lovely concept when you hear it just for the first time, right? It's one of the most touching moments in the film, I think, is between Fiona and her father. [Yeah.] The priest, Father James Lavelle. And there is a sort of forgiveness that happens when they talk about it. And it's really lovely as they walk along the beach. And yet, I think the majority of the film, and maybe it's because of the torment you're describing, but I think the majority of the film seems to be this sort of constant testing of the concept of forgiveness. [Wow.] Like, for example, can and should abusive priests ever be forgiven? [Right.] Should Veronica Brennan's abuser be forgiven? Should she be forgiven for her adultery? Should Freddy Joyce– here's an extreme one– a serial killer and cannibal, [oh God], should he received forgiveness? Should Frank Hart, the atheist doctor who clearly hates religion and human beings, should he receive forgiveness? Could anybody be forgiven? And would we actually want that? I feel like this film is pressing in so many ways, like: Doesn't basic human justice call for no mercy for certain acts, and for certain people who commit those acts?
Aaron 10:36
Yes! And for people who are so unrepentant, people who don't even really desire to be forgiven, but who so obviously need to experience that.
Evan 10:47
They need to experience it. And yet there's like– and I think we feel this in a special way because the priest is our POV character– we're like, following Him in all these interactions, and we know actually, that he is good. And he wants to extend kindness and goodness, and even the Lord's blessing. He's not defensive about the things that are brought up. He's doesn't make excuses for the church, for priests. He's very aware of the fallenness of himself in the world. And yet, you're constantly tested in almost scene by scene. And actually, do we want to forgive people who commit these heinous acts? I don't know.
Aaron 11:24
Man. Yeah, this film raises serious questions about the difference between, kind of like, human forgiveness and divine forgiveness, especially when Freddie Joyce the cannibal is saying, 'But God made me, right? God, surely God understands me, like, couldn't I go to heaven and embrace the people I've tormented, that I've tortured and killed? Couldn't I experience divine forgiveness in that way? Isn't God big enough and powerful enough to do that?' And I think that the priest– and me! I'm just like, 'Eww, yuck. Eww, [no way], stop having this awful, disgusting fantasy of you receiving forgiveness you don't deserve.' There's a huge feeling of indignation. And so, yeah, I feel like I'm totally pushed past my limit of what I find excusable or forgivable. Absolutely.
Evan 12:19
Yeah. I mean, it's like a cast of fifteen Ivan Karamazovs [yeah] giving you the very worst example of human cruelty and putting it literally to a priest and saying, 'What God are you talking about it? How can you–' Like, you know, it's like a million theodicy questions back to back to back.
Aaron 12:37
Yeah, that's what this film is, really, is this huge, huge series of theodicy questions. It's so curious how subtle and quiet any of the answers to those questions are, in comparison to the just noisiness and extremity of the questions as they're posed.
Evan 12:58
Yes, absolutely. Which, maybe to actually dig into some of those extreme questions and voices, we should get into some scenes. [Yeah, absolutely.] Because there are some very leechy, leechy scenes. [Oh God.] So I think there's a very obvious one, and you already named it, which is the opening scene. [Yeah.] I think it is in the running for one of the leechiest scenes we've talked about in this entire show. I too almost turned the TV off, and thought we should maybe not record an episode about this, [yeah] but I watched it. [No, absolutely.] And, you know, we don't need to get into the details here of what's said, but it is excruciating– what happened to that character. And it's clearly excruciating for him to recount it, and for Father Lavelle to hear it. And I think, for the viewer, as you're watching it, it immediately puts you in this incredible place of discomfort. [Yes.] And that tension that builds in at least in my body as I listened, carried through much of the film, if not all of it. [Yep.] So that's leechy, that takes a lot out of me. It sticks with me. I don't think I'll ever forget it. I don't quite have a medicinal quality to it yet, but it is just so memorable that I just think we have to start there.
Aaron 14:14
No, I think that's right. And I think that what what feels less leechy about it and more just purely parasitic, right, just that– I think, where is the medicine and this like horrific level of pain [yes] and abuse. I think– I was speaking with Banks earlier– this was Banks' leechiest scene by far– and he said in some ways, this movie doesn't feel like a leech to him, but like some kind of weird blood sucking butterfly. Something that just– maybe more a vampire bat, right? Something that lands on you and just feeds on you and then leaves and you're like, 'What the hell was that?' [Yeah.] And so for me– I mean, this film operates in strange ways, because the filmmaker all along knows who the confessor is, the one confessing to the priest and telling the priest 'I'm going to kill you in one week's time. Sunday next.' And so the filmmaker makes the film knowing that. [Yes.] And I found that by the end of the film, retroactively, a scene that I would not have said was the leechiest scene of the film became [ah] perhaps the leechiest scene of the film for me, knowing what I knew at the end.
Evan 15:32
Is it the butcher scene? What is it?
Aaron 15:34
It's the butcher shop scene. [Yeah.] Where after Father James has gone and he's confronted Jack Brennan's wife, who came to church with a black eye, she'd obviously been hurt by someone in her life, either her husband or this lover that she's taken outside her marriage. And so, Father James comes to the butcher shop where Jack works to confront him. And before we even enter the butcher shop, there's this like, disgusting image, right, of a butcher knife entering a bloody piece of meat. And then the priest comes in and says, 'I need to speak with you privately.' [Oh, wow.] They go back into the freezer. And Jack Brennan, his first joke is, ooh, "I hope we don't get too locked in here. We'll get so cold, we'll have to make love to keep warm." And he's the one who at the beginning of the film confessed to the priest that he had been abused. And he's someone who hides behind humor, [yes], but hides behind humor in this way that the mask reveals something of the distress and the brokenness underneath it. So even to make that joke– he's alone with a priest– and he's alone with a priest in a room surrounded by animals that have been slaughtered. So it's this like death chamber. [Yeah.] And at the end of the scene, he says, "You want a fresh cut of beef? Freshly slaughtered," right? So there's just like, all these images of death, torment, sacrifice. I mean, at the core of this film, right, is the Passion narrative. It's called 'Calvary,' I mean, to get back to the title, and so any image of sacrificial animal death should symbolically leap out to us, it is true, but the fact that that imagery of sacrifice is tied to this imagery of butchery, and the butchery of the vulnerable, the butchery of the young and innocent. It's– that is like this– it's awful. It's leechy to me after I know how much freight and weight that scene holds by the end.
Evan 15:35
Yeah. And I think the other scene that stands out to me also centers on Jack and the priest. They're not talking to each other. But it is as the church is burning, [wow, yeah], and the camera does pan to Jack. And I wrote in my notes in that moment, like, 'Is he enjoying this? It seems like he's enjoying this.' And by the end of the film, you realize, well, I think he was the arsonist. [Yeah.] He's also the one who kills Father James. And so his interactions with Father James, there's all sorts of foreshadowing, of course, that's happening– and again, to go back to the Passion narratives, you know, like a sheep led to the slaughter [yes], right? That is Jesus first. But it is also Father James. And in that church burning scene, there's also an image of Jesus burning, like a big sculpture of Jesus is burning inside the church, [yeah], again foreshadowing– if you– at that point, I kind of was pretty sure that Father James was going to actually be murdered. But if you had any doubt at that point, and you see Jesus burning, and the name of the film, again, is Calvary, like, you can see where this is headed. And so looking back, you can see too that Jack is the one involved in that. And what's interesting is that Jack doesn't want to get off unpunished necessarily. I mean, he ends up in prison at the end of the film, and it's not like he tried to escape from the law. He just wants to do the damage. Like he wants to– he wants revenge. He wants to return the damage that was done to him. And so burning a church, desecrating the body of a priest, because his body has been desecrated. Like, this is– He's tormenting his tormentors, right?
Aaron 19:28
Yeah, yeah. But in this way, that you feel like, what can come of this? What can come of this? Because he knows the person who actually harmed him is dead, and he can't get direct revenge. So he takes out his own trauma, his woundedness on other people like symbolic representatives. [Yes.] Either through the building or through the body of Father James.
Evan 19:53
Yeah, is he your leechy character?
Aaron 19:55
Jack Brennan?
Evan 19:55
Yeah.
Aaron 19:58
So– leechy character. So I watched this movie many years ago. And you know the character who stuck with me the most that whole time? Now, this is funny because– I mean, it's not funny– but when I watched it again, just recently, I forgot who the killer was. [Oh!] I forgot! I couldn't remember. And I think it's because Jack Brennan for the whole film is just so light hearted and hides behind his pain that he didn't stick with me for most of the film.
Evan 20:26
Yep. He wasn't mine either.
Aaron 20:28
No. You know who did stick with me? Dr. Frank Hart, [oh!], the atheist doctor.
Evan 20:34
Dude, that was one of mine too.
Aaron 20:36
After all these years, the character who I look back and I think, 'Okay, who do I remember from this movie?' And it's the character who disgusted me the most, and the character who I left the movie just hating. Because if I think there's anyone whose desire is to torment, I think one need look no further than the scene in the bar, where Dr. Frank sidles up to the priest when he's alone, almost like Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane being tempted by the devil or something. And he says, 'Hey, hey, Father, let me tell you a story.' And he tells him the most horrific story about a child who becomes deaf and dumb, and has this like, horrific experience of alienation and abandonment.
Evan 21:24
It was like an accident of anesthesiology, right? So he's, he's deaf, blind, paralyzed, and just wakes up and all of a sudden, he's in this tormented state, by an accident.
Aaron 21:36
I think he's like, locked inside his own body in this prison that's like hellish, right? And he just goes into this luxurious detail about the suffering of this child to the priest, while he's at this really low moment. And the priest is 'Why the f did you tell me this story?' He wants to attack the doctor. He wants to physically harm him. And I think ultimately, this is what leads him to snap, right? [Yes.] I mean, why do I like this scene? I shouldn't. But this scene is like this one moment where Father James fights back, where finally people have gone too far, just tormenting him and telling him he's worthless. And he pulls out this gun that he's borrowed to defend himself. And he doesn't want to hurt anyone. But he wants to destroy something. And for me, it's the scene of Jesus like entering the temple and like turning over tables [oh nice, yeah] and kicking out the money changers, right? Where he's like, 'You people who have so desecrated what is sacred, you people who have so stood against and contaminated what is holy and good about life, take this!' And he just shoots up all the glass and the mirrors and the bottles in the bar. And then he gets this furious beating and reprisal which is also very much like this Christological echo, right, of Jesus who was beaten and whipped.
Evan 23:01
Yeah, that's right.
Aaron 23:02
But I just think Dr. Frank Hart, really sends– I think he sends him pretty close to or over the edge. So like, his church has been burned. Everyone has told him that God is dead and doesn't matter. They don't want his help. They want to tell him the most awful stories anyone can imagine– just to see if it'll set him off. And it finally does.
Evan 23:26
Yeah, congratulations.
Aaron 23:27
Yeah, thanks, Dr. Frank Hart, who says like, 'Oh, some children died in an accident.' Where are they? 'Well, they're in the morgue where they're supposed to be, you know, haha.' He just laughs in this way that's excruciating, right? [Yep.] And I despise this character. I despise him. Almost as much as I despise Patrick.
Evan 23:50
From Eternal Sunshine!
Aaron 23:51
Season one, my most hated character of the season. Patrick from Eternal Sunshine.
Evan 23:57
Those are strong words. I mean, I think that word desecrate is a really good one. And I think the film feels the same way about Frank Hart. Because in the final scene that you see him in, at the very end, as they're panning through the different characters, he's in, I think, some operating room, and he puts out a cigarette into what seems to be a human organ. I thought it was a heart. Like he's smoking. He puts his cigarette out on a heart.
Aaron 24:23
He's just so– he is the ugliest form of nihilism [yes] that I can imagine, right? It's like– it's not the nihilism of Camus, which is like, there's this heroic sense of getting to live fully in absurdity. No, no. He says, Everything is ridiculous. And I just want to not feel anything. And to make sure other people feel terrible about it. That's disgusting. [Yes.]
Evan 24:48
Yeah. I'm not gonna disagree with you. I think he is the leechiest, and you put it really well. A couple, I guess, honorable mentions. [Yes.] I think Milo, the young man who's interested in becoming a soldier.
Aaron 25:02
He wants to join the army.
Evan 25:05
He just struck me as maybe similar to The Riddler in the Batman, sort of this lonely male, almost like an incell type, who has the sort of illusions about their strength, but also has this sense of despair. He mentioned suicide. He holds those things together and clearly pities himself in these strange and uncomfortable ways. So I feel uncomfortable with him.
Aaron 25:29
Oh, absolutely. And I also think he's someone who, at the end of his conversation with Father James, he's like, 'Well, thanks, that conversation didn't really help me at all. But it was just nice to say those things.' And I'm like, wait a minute, you never were even going to listen to anything that came up in this conversation.
Evan 25:42
Which, by the way, is not unlike Freddie, as well– I forget his last name– but Freddie in the prison. He's like, 'I'm just gonna say these things to get a rise out of the priest. But I clearly I don't, I don't think these things.'
Aaron 25:54
These are people who are living their lives in quiet desperation [yes], right? They're, they're bored. They're limited. Their growth has been stunted in some way. And they're just looking for any cheap kind of way to get recognition, affirmation.
Evan 26:11
Do you think– do you think Fiona is leechy?
Aaron 26:13
That's a good question. I don't know. I feel like Father James, ultimately, is leechier [okay] than Fiona. I think Fiona, is too completely– this is gonna sound weird– but just too completely human in some ways. [Okay.] She has a lot of her humanity intact. She wears her issues like literally on her sleeve. I mean, she bears the scars of an attempted– a suicide attempt on her arm. She knows why she did that. It had to do with relationships. She's flawed. She also just gets along pretty well with people. She tells the truth. She asked her dad hard questions, but she's not cruel. Like she's just kind of a person. And to me, I don't find her leechy in that way. What about you?
Evan 27:00
I think so. I think you're right. I think I feel quite a bit of pain as she describes the abandonment she felt after her mother died.
Aaron 27:07
Yes, no, that's right.
Evan 27:08
And then after her dad then becomes a priest.
Aaron 27:13
No, you're right.
Evan 27:14
And that's, that's really painful to think about and to empathize with. I guess, this may be a stretch, but I think the true villain of this film is whoever killed Bruno the dog. And, do we know who did it? I don't think it was Jack.
Aaron 27:32
Well, Jack says he didn't do it. But then he keeps asking these probing questions about, 'Wait, but did it cause you pain? Did it make you uncomfortable? I just want to know.' So, I can't tell.
Evan 27:42
Here's maybe a far-fetched reading. Did Fiona do it?
Aaron 27:45
No. I mean, she asked her dad how the dog's doing.
Evan 27:48
She asking him about the dog the next morning.
Aaron 27:50
I don't think she did it.
Evan 27:52
Okay. And so why does she go to the prison to meet Jack at the end of the film?
Aaron 27:57
I mean, I think she wants to understand [okay]– I think she wants to understand. Because listen to this– I mean, if we're looking for echoes inside the film, there's a moment where Father James is at the prison with the serial killer. And the serial killer's saying, 'Do you think God would understand me? God made me.' And he says, the priest says, 'If there's anyone who understands you, it could only be God.' But I think there is this desire, when something horrific has been done, for it to be understood. But I also think that Fiona probably is looking for a way to honor her father's last words to her, which are about forgiveness.
Evan 28:38
Well, I just don't see any motive there. As we think about eventually getting to the beach– Forgiveness, yeah. That was my initial read, too. But the longer they stared at each other, I just thought, What is going on in this interaction? At first, I was like, wait were they in on this together or something? And then I was like, [oh wow], I was like, I don't think this is that kind of movie. [Yeah.] But then I don't know. The the dog's throat was cut. [Okay.] We know it's part of her story, too. I guess, I guess we don't know. Yes. Oh, yes. I don't know. What a segue. Yeah, let's do it. Is it time for a little Leech on a Beach? Oh man, it is jarring, going from talking about self-harm and murder and abuse [good god], to laughing about beachy things, which I think is the toggling that happens throughout this film.
Aaron 29:29
My God, this film has such a dark sense of humor. It is outrageous. Outrageous.
Evan 29:36
Yeah. So I'm not– there are funny parts that I think we should name. I guess I just want to start though with a moment of light– that I would not call humor, but light, which is the chapel scene with Theresa [yes] and Father James, where Theresa talks about her husband who has died or is about to die. [Yes.] They talk about what their marriage and their life was like. And Teresa says– I wrote down the quote, I just loved it. She says, "Yes, my husband was a good man, we had a very good life together. We loved each other very much. And now he was gone. That is not unfair. That is just what happened. But many people do not live good lives, and they do not feel love. This is what is unfair. I feel sorry for them." And that is really lovely. And it reminded me of Mrs. O'Brien, actually, from 'Tree of Life,' "unless you love, your life will pass you by." [Yes.] And I think in a very dark movie, and even in a movie where the humor is also very dark, that moment of light was really welcome for me.
Aaron 30:43
I think that's right. And I think that the way that this movie has– finds it's more– that the heart is lifted, so to speak. To quote– I think there's a quote from 'Cry, the Beloved Country' actually that talks about, like, the lifting, the lifting of the heavy heart, you know. And I do think it's there with Theresa, but I also think– this is to go back to Fiona, the daughter– I think that there's actually a lot of moments between the father and the daughter where hard truths are told, but also, there's just like, playfulness. [Yeah.] Rapport. It's this relationship where there's not the antagonism [yeah] that's there in so many relationships in the film.
Evan 31:26
There's teasing, right? Like the Finn McCool thing, the story or the poem, and they go back and forth about that, but it's not hostile.
Aaron 31:34
And am I right that she convinces him to dance at one scene when they're at the bar? [Yeah.] These playful things that recall something of his own youth and humanity out of him [yes] that he's been like, bottled up and wearing his priestly collar too long. Like, I think that she really does– yeah– that's why I don't think she killed his dog. I think you're right. I think she loves the dog too.
Evan 32:00
I take back the theory. Well, I'm glad we talked about it because I was like, this is a wild, out there theory. I think you're right, you convinced me.
Aaron 32:09
I stand by my read here. But can we also talk about some of the like [yeah, let's do it] dark humor here? I mean, Banks' favorite beachy moment [yeah] is when the evil banker, Michael Fitzgerald–
Evan 32:23
Yes. When he urinates on a painting?
Aaron 32:27
He's just a real turd, man, of a human being. He's like out there shooting skeet shots or whatever, out in the field. And then he's in there talking about how he has all these possessions. He doesn't care about any of them. Another kind of terrible nihilist who just also seems false.
Evan 32:44
I'm a "colossus," he calls himself.
Aaron 32:46
Oh wow. Everybody wants to be God in this movie. Like even the serial killer says, like, once he's killing someone, like, 'I get to be God.'
Evan 32:53
When he sees the light go out of their eyes, [yeah], I am God.
Aaron 32:56
I'm God. And the priest is like, 'No. No, you're not.' [No, you're not.] It's kind of amazing, the response there. But like, the pissing on the painting. [Yeah.] A, it's shocking. [It is.] It's a real surprise to see that urine stream going right onto the priceless antique. [Yes. Yep.] And the priests just kind of like, slams the door in his face, and you cannot help but have a bit of a laugh here. Like, how did this person come to this? Right?
Evan 33:25
Oh, I had a good chuckle about it.
Aaron 33:28
And I think that's part of what the film is after– is that people who see life as having no meaning and no value, (a) they're to be pitied, or (b) they can be disgusting, or (c) they're to be laughed at. Because it's ridiculous.
Evan 33:42
Yes. Yeah. Agree. That's, that's a very beachy scene. All right, well, I think we've had a nice little vacation in the midst of some dark humor.
Aaron 34:10
Oh, man. Yeah, plenty more laughs to be found, for those who want to go looking for them amidst a lot of dark shadow there.
Evan 34:20
Indeed. All right. So we do want to take some time now to talk about the hirudotherapy of this film. What is medicinal, salutary? What do we need from this movie? Anything jumping out at you?
Aaron 34:34
Yeah, I actually had to think about it. Because I do– I think there's more to say about forgiveness, and the way that forgiveness works in this film. But actually, you know, when I when I pause, when I reflect – what is medicinal about this film? – what I actually think... so to go back, to set the frame here, I mean, Father James has been told, 'You have one week to live. Set your house in order.' [Yes. Nice.] And it's the way that Father James sets his house in order. [Yeah, I like that.] He does not make any grand gestures of affection, or an appeal to be remembered or especially treasured or recognized. He goes about these kind of ridiculous, usually unappreciated gestures of loving people who don't deserve it. [Yeah.] And what I find– I mean, one of the things that is absurd to me in this film is that he serves communion to the people at the beginning, when he knows they're all jerks, [snakes!], snakes(!), and kind of terrible– like, he could stand in such condemnation, he could stand in this position of righteous anger and judgment. But instead, he just keeps loving them throughout the film. But– this is the last thing I want to say– he doesn't do it in a way that's cheap. He actually says, 'You know what, I'm going to– I'm going to be your priest. And I'm just going to keep doing the rites and rituals, I'm going to show you love as best I can. But I'm also going to challenge you when I think you're wrong.' And I think that just going about setting things in order before his death, he does it in this way that's so simple, that's so small. And yet the way that he tries to hold people accountable, and still tries to make them better, even as they are tormenting him, and trying to erode his own faith– I think there's something there that I'm like, 'Oh, my gosh, like, this image of love [yes], it is medicinal unto me.'
Evan 36:43
Yeah, I agree. As you're describing the way he went about setting his house in order, it reminds me of Martin Luther saying, if he knew the eschaton, the end of days, was coming tomorrow, what would you do? And he said, 'I'd plant a tree.' And there's something just so quotidian and beautiful about Father James going about the work of being a priest. You know, it happens to be the case that his vocation is, as a priest [yeah] embodying a certain kind of love, hopefully. And he does that– he does that superbly. But I think even if you're not a priest, there's something really lovely about the thought of, 'Hey, the end of the road could happen tomorrow,' and yet, your job is still to go about caring for others, tending to your home, mending fences, mending relationships that are broken, looking out for people who have been hurt, trying to understand those that are maybe not understandable. [Yeah.] You know, that is the lesson to me, I think.
Aaron 37:42
And can we also say that he– I'm still trying to get a read on this– like, maybe one of the things he does that seems the most hurtful is his confrontation with his co-priest, Father Leary, who by the way– Father Leary is one of the most hilarious and pitiful characters in this film.
Evan 37:59
He's kind of leechy.
Aaron 38:00
He's like– because he's so insecure [yeah] and so pitiful– I mean, these are classic touchstones of a leechy character, actually, to circle back to that.
Evan 38:09
Quite pitiful, quite confident, too.
Aaron 38:12
Yeah, absolutely. And– like the moment where he just gets called out, and he's like, 'You shouldn't be a priest. You don't have integrity. That's the worst thing I could say to anyone. You just don't have integrity.' And you realize, he's kind of right, but– [he's totally right!]– it's so mean! [It is.] But in a way, if that's one of his last acts in that person's life, has he not saved that person? [Yeah.] From from a torment of remaining a priest when he shouldn't be, I mean.
Evan 38:41
And saving those parishioners that that person would supposedly serve! I mean, he clearly– from the first time we meet father Leary, he is talking about Veronica. He's casting aspersions on all the people in his flock, right? As opposed to Father James who feeds them the Eucharist, right? [Yeah.] Even though he knows what snakes they are.
Aaron 39:00
Father Leary's really uncomfortable being a priest. Yeah, he doesn't– he doesn't want to be. It's funny when he says, 'You should be an accountant,' because the happiest he is in the movie is when he's about to get a big donation!
Evan 39:11
From Michael Fitzgerald! Yeah.
Aaron 39:16
What about you?
Evan 39:17
Yeah, I don't know. It's hard. I think the challenge of– kind of like we talked about at the beginning with forgiveness– I think it is good to think through what forgiveness actually means between people when heinous things have happened. Like, what does it actually mean to forgive someone, someone who's wronged you, or someone who's wronged someone you love? And I don't have a lot of answers from this movie about that. But I think what's salutary for me is to recognize that as good as forgiveness is, I think, it's not simple. It's quite complex. And you need to really consider it because you don't want to minimize the trauma or the abuse or whatever that has happened in seeking reconciliation. So I think it's very much an object lesson for me in fully attending to the harm and the pain and not moving too quickly to things being all good again.
Aaron 40:16
Yeah. And there's this weird way in which– one of the things that I think Father James is doing at the end of the film, one of the reasons he shows up at that beach– and I mean, it's one of the things that I love about the film, actually, is that he does try and make a run for it. [Yes.] And then he changes his mind. [Yep.] And there's not a lot of conversation that happens, except that he runs into Teresa at the airport [Teresa again. Yep.] He's about to try and make an escape, to escape his Calvary, to escape his crucifixion. [Yep.] Because it's not his crime. Like he didn't do the wrong.
Evan 40:55
And he also can't make right what happened– he can't atone for it. And yet, there is a witness to his death, I think [yes]. But it's only again possible because of Teresa's witness too, right? That light that she's shown in the chapel, and shines again to him in his moment of temptation. I think you're right. I think that witness of her, like, gives him the strength and energy he needs for that last step toward his cross.
Aaron 41:21
Well, here's what I think– is that he ends up dying for the sins of another, right? He becomes the stand-in [yes] for this other priest who did do terrible wrong [yep] and who did torment and abuse a child. He says, 'You know what, I'm not that person. I didn't do that wrong. And in fact, I never would. But I'm associated with the institution that protected that person [yes] and that let that happen. And therefore, I'm implicated. And I will stand in that person's place. I will take the bullet that that person deserves, if that means some kind of redemption, some kind of closure.' [Yeah.] I think he doesn't– he doesn't go so– he doesn't say so much as that. But that's my understanding of his return [yeah] to the beach.
Evan 41:37
Yeah, no, I think you're right.
Aaron 42:15
This is what a priest must do.
Evan 42:16
Yeah. It's interesting. I do think it is redemptive what he's doing, and I do think he is sacrificial. I wonder what though, if we think about the victim of the original sin of this movie, Jack, what does taking a life do to this already broken person? And there's a strange way in which, like, yes– I think, Father James making this decision is sacrificial, it is redemptive in a way. But it also allows this broken person who has been victimized to perpetuate great, great harm against him. Does that make sense?
Aaron 42:54
Yeah, I mean, so what– what good does it do to actually let Jack become a murderer? Well, I think it does a couple of things. One of which is maybe good, and one of which is twisted. [Yeah.] Maybe part of what's twisted, a twisted good here, is that it lets him become an agent in his own life again. [Yeah, that's right.] Which this is not the way we normally want to claim our own agency, through the taking of a life. But he attempts that, like that's the way that he thinks that he can reclaim his agency. And he's granted that. But I think what also happens is that he gets to finally be unmasked. I think what actually has happened is that his whole life has been a facade of trying to hide the fact that this– that he lived a childhood where he was victimized and abused in this horrific way. And he's done everything he can, crafted this careful mask of humor and religiosity and a married life. And I think you have to ask yourself, 'Why at this moment, does he finally crack and decide that he wants to kill Father James?' [Yeah.] And I just have to think to myself that he's tired of acting like this is not what has happened to him. And I think by getting sent to prison for it, he never has to pretend again that this isn't his life. Finally, he gets to live in the truth. I don't know. These are my– these are my thoughts. I'm not sure it's a reward. [No.] I don't think it's a reward. [Yeah.] But I do think in some ways it's preferable to the lie that he was living before.
Evan 44:33
That makes sense. I mean, as you were talking, I thought about 'coming into the light,' or like, the exposure of his history. And it's interesting that when he is in the confessional, we don't see him at all. We only see Father James, with light on Father James in the scene, but the voice is coming from darkness. And so just to stick with your theme of unmasking, coming out of the darkness, there is a way in which [yeah] he is revealed there and his story is revealed. But it's just brutal. It is just brutal. Whatever good might be in that, it is twisted and really, really painful. Okay. [Yeah.] How many leeches we got? [Yeah.]
Aaron 45:17
Banks said two. He said he could be persuaded to three. I think it's a three leecher. One of the telltale signs of a leechy film is visceral, physical discomfort. And this movie, just, as me–
Evan 45:38
Did it for ya?
Aaron 45:39
I mean, like I say, excruciating, to go back to the idea of torment. Does it stick with me? Now, that's interesting. I think it takes a lot out of me. 110% takes a lot out. I think there are some medicinal qualities that, you know, we've maybe discussed; maybe they're more complicatedly medicinal; maybe there's some kind of poison in there with the medicine in a complicated way. I don't think it has a stick-with-me quality, to the point that it's definitely not a four leecher in that quality. But I think it's so potent and visceral that I wouldn't give it three personally. [Okay.] What would you say?
Evan 46:20
This is hard. I would lean one or two.
Aaron 46:26
Gasp. One or two? Say more.
Evan 46:29
I think it deserves one just for the opening five minutes. [Oh my god.] Yeah, and maybe even two just for the opening. [Oh man.] So I'm going to make– I'm going to make a critique of the film. And I'll explain why, or how that connects to leechiness. But the critique is, I felt like– and I wrote this like thirty minutes into it– it felt so written to me. [Ohh.] You know, in a positive way, I guess you could say, clearly, McDonough loves language and wordplay. He's witty. But it seemed to me that it was almost like, too pleased with itself, the writing. [Okay.] And then I also felt like again, it was a million theodicy questions back to back to back, which intellectually is interesting to me. But emotionally, it didn't quite work, because it just seemed like the characters were created for the sake of the question. [Ohh.] And so they didn't actually feel– many of them, some did– but many of them didn't feel fully rounded. Including Frank Hart, actually. I thought he was almost a caricature, in some ways.
Aaron 47:32
Oh, he definitely is. He definitely is. He's easy to hate.
Evan 47:34
And so, yeah, I guess I just– there were maybe just too many of those kinds of characters for me to actually feel really emotionally invested. I was invested in Father James, Fiona, maybe a couple others. Bruno of course. But this like, long cast of characters, that all are sort of– they felt like these arguments put on on flesh and bones– it took me out of the the flow of the story a little bit, and took me out of sort of an empathetical place. And so I felt a distance from it. So it didn't– even though they're talking about excruciating topics, it felt academic to me, and not as leechy in many places. So I'm willing to go up to two, but I'm in between one and two.
Aaron 48:23
Yeah. And there are ways in which I'm not sure the film coheres completely. [Yep.] I do think that– like some of the echoes with 'Tree of Life' through the influence of Teresa, [yeah], I think that's profound. I think it's potent. I think Father James, wonderfully acted by Brendan Gleeson.
Evan 48:42
Yeah, Brandon Gleeson's so good. We haven't given him enough credit. He's so lovely.
Aaron 48:46
He nails it. But I also think that there's– that this film has a really interesting frame, too, which I find curious. Maybe we can just close somewhere around here with the beginning. The quote from St. Augustine on the blank screen at the beginning. [Yeah.] Which is not about– it's not actually about Jesus, it's about the thieves on the cross. [Interesting.] And to paraphrase the quote, it's like, sort of like, 'Take courage, take heart, one of the thieves was saved.' Then it says, 'Be cautious, take warning, one of the thieves was damned.' [Yeah.] And you can kind of see– I think what the film does is kind of play with those two different types of types of folks. I think that Fiona and Theresa are obviously like, the good thief, people who suffer and who say, 'Let's still be in relationship. Let's still find meaning in life. [Father James too]. Father James, definitely. And then there are those who just spit torment, who just spit, 'Hey, why can't you save yourself? Why didn't you? Why isn't this different? Bah, bah, bah, bah.'
Evan 49:50
Yeah. That's interesting. The writer also is a someone who seems to be saved, I guess.
Aaron 49:51
Does it go back to way of nature, way of grace? [Interesting]. In a way? I think this is a frame that actually, like co-resonates with that in an interesting way. So I think it's at least two. I think it's at least two leeches.
Evan 50:08
Yeah, you're probably right. And I think another– this is obscure, obscure. But another 'Tree of Life' echo I heard was towards the end with Fiona on the beach, and you hear seagulls, you hear those birds, which is the same sounds you hear in some key moments and at the end of 'Tree of Life.' Those seagulls are, I think, indicative of sort of a reconciliation, or even like a heavenly type thing.
Aaron 50:32
Well, they're like threshold creatures that live on the edge between the land and the sea. And I think I was watching an interview earlier with one of the actors who said, quote, "Obviously, the landscape is a character in this movie."
Evan 50:44
Yes! Oh, we didn't even talk about this! Yeah.
Aaron 50:45
I mean, the landscape of Ireland itself. I mean, if you've watched like 'The Banshees of Inisherin,' by the way–
Evan 50:51
Yeah, by his brother, made by his brother?
Aaron 50:52
Are you serious? Oh, it's a wonderful connection. And I think that, just like 'Tree,' yeah beaches mean more than they– the beach is the site of the crucifixion. [Yeah.] Isn't that interesting? On the threshold between land and sea, in the beauty of the landscape. Literally, someone's making a landscape painting.
Evan 51:11
It's also the place where Peter is reconciled to Jesus after the resurrection. The beach, right? [Oh, wow, wow.] And so the stand-in for Peter now, this priest, follows Jesus into crucifixion there.
Aaron 51:22
Oh man. And what's also interesting is that, you know, Jack sees the altar boy making the painting. I mean, the altar board comes and says, 'What the heck is going here?' and tries to step in, and [yeah] save the priest in a way. And he says, 'Oh, I'm like, I'm seeing myself.'
Evan 51:42
It's almost like he– I think he pauses, right? Does he like reconsider in that moment? But then he goes through with it.
Aaron 51:48
Yeah, he almost does. So I just think that this movie has chops. It has layers. I think it–
Evan 51:57
Okay. You've convinced me.
Aaron 51:59
At least two [yeah, let's do two], at least two.
Evan 52:00
I'm at two. You brought up Theresa. That's actually what got me. I think [yeah] what's going on there is is really, really good, and leechy. All right. Well, that is all we have for today on 'Calvary.' Thank you, listeners, for joining us on this episode. As always, we would love to hear from you. So please reach out to us @leechpodcast on Twitter, @theleechpodcast on Instagram, and theleechpodcast.com. For Evan and Aaron, it's been great being with you. We'll see you soon.
Aaron 52:01
I'm at three.
Evan 52:43
This episode was hosted by Evan Cate and Aaron Jones. Editing by Evan Cate, graphic design by Banks Clark, original music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and Music, and equipment help and consultation from Topher Thomas.