The guys head out west again – this time to capture UAPs in Jordan Peele’s Nope.
After considering leeches’ relationships with chimpanzees (1:34), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Nope’s leechiest themes (8:20), scenes (17:58), and characters (29:13). To get some relief, the guys head to the shore for Leech on a Beach (36:26). They conclude by considering the film’s medicinal qualities (40:16) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film’s leechiness (52:24).
We’re always looking to expand our pond -- please reach out!
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Credits:
Evan 00:28
Well hello everyone. Welcome back to the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. I am your host, Evan Cate, and I am joined by two intergalactic travelers looking for peace. Aaron Jones and Banks Clark. What's up, guys?
Aaron 00:41
Hey, hey!
Banks 00:42
How's it going?
Evan 00:43
The Leech Podcast is a show about movies that suck the life out of you. But they also stick with you. They may even be good for you– like a leech. Today, we will be discussing the 2022 film Nope. Written, directed, and produced by Jordan Peele. It stars Daniel Kaluuya, Keke Palmer, and Brandon Perea, and it is a delightful film that we look forward to discussing soon. Before we do that, as always, we want to expand our pond. So please reach out to us @leechpodcast on Twitter / X [haha], @theleechpodcast on Instagram, and theleechpodcast.com. All right, again, we remain an educational program as well as a movie podcast. So Aaron, can you learn us some more about leeches?
Aaron 01:33
Of course, Evan, I'd be so pleased to. [haha!]
Banks 01:38
Are there gonna be some "nope" moments in this Leech Anatomy?
Aaron 01:41
Nope, haha.
Banks 01:42
Like, we're done? Nope, no, no.
Aaron 01:44
Well, here's here's where we went today for Leech Anatomy. I always like to find some kind of connection to the film we're watching. So I started to ask myself, you know, there's a important chimpanzee in this film, named Gordy.
Banks 01:57
Yes, there is.
Evan 01:57
Aww, Gordy.
Banks 01:58
Well. That'll get you going.
Aaron 01:58
And I wondered [you went there?] are there any connections between chimps and leeches? That led me to a very unusual article [yes] that's not exactly leech focused, but I feel is illuminating enough that we need it. So the article is from 2022, referenced in Current Biology. I'm looking at the title "Chimpanzees Rub Insects on Open Wounds." And what's at stake here is that there is a long practice of human beings using invertebrates, namely leeches, of course, on open wounds. But it turns out that humans might not be the only kind of primates that use invertebrates to treat their own damaged bodies. [No way.] So let me just cite you a little bit here. In November 2019, the team observed seventy-six open wounds on twenty-two different chimpanzees – I don't know how they got these wounds – twenty-two events of insect application by ten different chimpanzees. They would catch insects and rub them on their wounds. It's not the same as hirudotherapy, which is the application of a leech to a wound. But I think there's a really beautiful connection here. And in fact, let me just close with this. One of these chimpanzees demonstrated some very sweet social behavior [aww] by capturing an insect and rubbing it on its buddy's wounds.
Evan 03:28
Oh my goodness.
Aaron 03:29
It just reminded me of that sweet fist bump between Gordy and Jude Park in the film.
Evan 03:34
Wow. You know, honestly, it kind of makes me feel like a metaphor for what we're doing in this podcast, just rubbing leeches on each other.
Banks 03:41
It's just insects. This is how I really picture this podcast working. It's, you know, this is real friendship here. But okay, now I'm picturing, like– I can think of it like rubbing leeches. But are they just like snatching up a dragonfly and just kind of like smeeshing it on a wound? Or is this like applying, like– a maggot, or something like that?
Aaron 04:05
It's more like the smooshing. But the question is– the next phase of the research is to find out what kinds of insects [yeah, that was my question] they're catching to do this.
Evan 04:15
Are they discerning in the insects that they use for healing?
Aaron 04:18
Absolutely, that's the next phase of the research.
Evan 04:21
Okay, listeners, stay tuned. Yeah. Next episode, we will definitely follow up.
Aaron 04:25
I'm waiting on the researchers here. So don't over-promise.
Banks 04:28
We need to get some of these researchers on the pod. [That's true.] Lots of questions.
Evan 04:33
Yeah, we don't want to get ahead of the scientists here and bring false information to our listeners. So thank you, Aaron, for remaining vigilant.
Aaron 04:39
God forbid.
Evan 04:41
All right, well, on that note, let's transition to our film, which– just to warn you, fair listener, we will be spoiling the plot and the ending of this movie. We also are going to be talking about a film that is rated R. It is scary at times. There's some bad language, some violence, and other things that are maybe inappropriate for certain folks. So, just be warned before you dive into this film. Banks, what happened in this movie?
Banks 05:11
Man, this is a fun movie. I'm looking forward to this conversation. So this is a movie about two siblings, O.J. and Emerald Haywood, who own a horse ranch in the American West, I guess it's California. But the reason we guess that is it's very much connected with Hollywood. So these are horses designed, sort of trained, to work in movies. And the horse ranch is unfortunately failing. The father– O.J. and Emerald's father– died mysteriously when a coin got shot into his head in the middle of a field. And then the horse ranch has never really recovered. So the movie kind of starts with this mystery happening. And O.J. and Emerald kind of struggling to keep it going. They really don't have the charisma, they don't have the organization to keep this happening. And what they end up discovering is that as they're trying to figure out, how do we keep this ranch happening, they discover what seems to be a UFO, or is it UAP [haha] on their property that hides in a cloud. And then they realize, 'Hey, this is an opportunity.' And so they start trying to capture, get like the 'money shot' of this UFO on film so they can sell it to help save the ranch and the company and sort of buy back some of the legacy that's been stolen. And, importantly, the Haywood family, they're a black family within the Hollywood industry, and their great–great–great grandfather, three greats, is Alister Haywood, who was– they write in as being– the jockey who was riding the horse in the very first film, the very first movie, set of pictures, set in motion ever. And so it's a lot about how that's been whitewashed. And also how this buying back of a legacy is also this undercurrent of them buying sort of their own sense of heritage back into this industry. Another thing that's happening in this film is that their neighbor is this childhood star of this show, Gordy, which was a show about like a chimpanzee and a family. But the chimp kind of went wild on set and killed most of the cast while filming. And Jupe Park, who is the this child actor who survived, starts this sort of side show, tourist trap, cowboy-themed park. And he is now trying to, like, get people together to watch the alien come, and like, you know, show them and have this whole experience. And so the movie continues, trying– with all these people coming together around this strange UFO who turns out not to be a UFO. It turns out to be a creature, like a predator, an alien predator. And they end up trying to capture it. They have these fun schemes, which they try to capture it, they can't look at it in the eye. And in the end, they do get the shot. And they are able to restore some aspect, at least, of their family legacy. But there's a lot that happens in between. And that's what we're going to talk about now.
Evan 08:18
Awesome. Okay. Well, we want to talk about some of the big themes, the leechy themes of this film. So just to remind everyone, leechy themes are these themes that suck some life out of you. They stick with you– you can't stop thinking about them– and yet on some level, they might be good for you. They might bring you some kind of medicine. So Aaron, is there a theme that is leechy for you?
Aaron 08:42
Yeah, I'm gonna start with what is probably the most obvious theme because it's referenced directly in the biblical passage that's put on screen at the beginning of the film.
Banks 08:55
I think I know what's coming here.
Evan 08:56
From Nahum. Let's go.
Aaron 08:57
Nahum 3:6. I'm just going to quote the verse. It says, "I will cast abominable filth at you, make you vile, and make you a spectacle." And my leechy theme, of course, is spectacle. Yeah, you have to go there, because the idea keeps coming up over and over and over again. In what way? Well, to be a spectacle in this film is to be noticed, and is to become famous, in a way. You'll notice that Jupe Park, he uses the word spectacle often to refer to both this horrific incident that happened on set at Gordy's that made him kind of extra famous, even more famous; and also his desire to harness the power of this alien visitor for a new spectacle to make him more famous yet again. And so, in Jupe Park's mind, the idea of spectacle is actually– it's a good thing in some way– it gets you recognition and makes you special, and he's kind of addicted to it, I would say. But also to go back to that image of the horse, and the first black jockey, and the first moving picture– that too is a spectacle [yes] that haunts the family on Haywood ranch. And their desire to continue to be seen and to continue to be special– is it a good thing for them? Because what's interesting, and this is the last thing I'll say about spectacle, is that the way that it comes up in this Nahum passes is that it sounds like a punishment. [Yeah, aha]. It actually sounds to me like a kind of plague. [Yeah.] And what I think this film does is explore the desire to be seen, and the desire to be held and gripped in the public eye. Because look at this, look at this, when– the first time that we see the black jockey– it's kind of being superimposed over this black background, which actually resembles, in my view, the weird black eye of the alien. It's like playing [rrrrrr] over the alien's eye.
Banks 11:08
Well it's in the title screen. You're actually looking into to the mouth of the alien.
Aaron 11:11
Yes, that's right. That's right. That's right.
Evan 11:13
Yeah, yeah, in the very beginning.
Aaron 11:15
It's like– to be a spectacle is to be, I think, consumed in some way. [Mmm.] And this alien is hungry. And if you want to put yourself out there to be consumed, be ready for the consequences.
Banks 11:31
This is so– this theme is right in the– I think Jordan Peele even talks about spectacle as being like the center, but like– the thing that strikes me about what you're saying, even in bringing in Jupe Park, and this is– there's so many kinds of spectacle even. [Mmmm.] Right? Because there's the spectacle of, you know, Gordy sort of making a spectacle out of his traumatic past. And there's the spectacle of him sort of putting on a show to try and show these things off. Like, yeah, he is addicted to spectacle, but also there's the spectacle that consumed him, [yes] that originally traumatized him. Is that a spectacle? Is that just a catastrophe? I don't know. But like– it's playing those things off of one another throughout, because like the original– because the movie opens, right, on this horrific murder scene, right? Where the chimpanzee has just decimated this sitcom set. And then it turns into a movie for our entertainment.
Evan 12:34
Yes. Just to piggyback on this, I want to think about the grammar of that Nahum passage. [Yeah.] I will make you a spectacle. Is it an indirect object or a direct object? Is it, 'I will make a spectacle for you?' [Mmm.] Right? That's something that Jordan Peele is doing with this film, it's something that you park does, it's something that Em and O.J. are trying to do– they're trying to make a spectacle [or to produce a spectacle]. Or, I will make– on the other hand, is it that I will make you yourself a spectacle? Like, I will make you into a spectacle. And I think in a way as Jupe tries to do that, he makes himself into a spectacle. And so there's a connection between trying to entertain and create something spectacular, but in the process, you become a spectacle yourself.
Aaron 13:16
Oh definitely. Well, there's a quote, I think, where Peele is winking at us, where O.J. says, "What's a bad miracle?" And I think the answer to that question is, it's a spectacle, to be made a spectacle. And what they want to do– what the what the Haywood family wants so badly to do– to capture the Oprah shot, the Oprah shot of the alien–
Banks 13:48
The Oprah shot! Gotta sell it to Oprah.
Aaron 13:51
Right? And they want to create a stir, a splash, a spectacle, that will again– make them famous, make them rich, make everything better. But would it actually [yes] make things better?
Evan 14:03
And that's a great question. I want to think about that in light of the theme I want to highlight, which is 'capture.' Banks, I think you said it like four times in your plot summary– [capture] and I think this film– like, what do you have to capture in order to make a spectacle? Who do you have to capture in order to create a spectacle? And what does that do to you in the process of capturing, to create an entertainment, or to create a spectacle for others? There's so much that is captured in this film, right? There is motion captured on film. Of course, they're trying to capture a shot of this UAP. There's, you know– the legacies of slavery, of course, right? Black bodies captured. Land captured.
Banks 14:48
The American West.
Evan 14:48
The American West captured, right? So I think it's a really rich theme that is connected to a lot of pain, a lot of exploitation, and that's really leechy for me. That's what I've been thinking about. It took something out of me. And I think, sitting with it– and I think of the ways that Jordan Peele forces forces us to sit with it– I think there's a lot of medicine there. So that's my leechy theme.
Aaron 15:10
Well, I think that to try and capture in a way is to be captured. That's why it's interesting that there's a predator in this film, who is, at the same time that they're trying to capture [it], it is trying to capture them.
Evan 15:25
Yeah.
Banks 15:27
And it's like a very literal capture, right? The predator is not trying to say 'hi, like, I'm gonna sting you'– no, it literally like engulfs. [slurp] Let me– I'm gonna get you in my gizzard.
Evan 15:40
Right? Like, Angel is wrong. He's not just trying to stick a probe up your butt.
Aaron 15:45
Trying to stick you up his butt. I mean, no, no, he's putting you right into his guts. Yes, there's lots of like, nasty scream scenes with people getting digested by the alien creature. Yuck. Visceral.
Evan 15:58
Visceral indeed.
Banks 15:58
Ooph. There is something to that. You know, it fits well with the theme that I would bring up here. It's the theme of horror. And so horror fits with all of this. You know, I think I was mentioning a little bit just in my reaction to Aaron's theme of spectacle, but– Jordan Peele's known for his movies in horrors and thrillers. But I feel like this scene opens in a true scene of horror. Like, this is a true catastrophe. And it is a profoundly uncomfortable scene, it might be in the running for leechiest when we when we get there. And that is these scenes of this chimpanzee literally just, you know, brutally, inhumanely, killing people on a set. And it stands in stark contrast to horror movies for entertainment. And so, what are we horrified of? And why do we go pay money to be horrified? What does that mean about us? And this– I think that that's a major theme here as well, right? It has to do with spectacle, like, spectacle is both– something is going– like, we seek the spectacle, right? We buy the ticket to you know, what is it, the Star Lasso? [Yeah.] The show, right? And also the show is made for us. And I feel like this movie is saying, 'Well, there's something strange about that, like, why do we seek the horror?' And yet, is that a way of actually processing and dealing with it, right? We think of Jupe Park, who can't actually talk about what happened to him on set. They asked him, 'Hey, what happened on set?' And all he can talk about is an SNL skit with Chris Kattan. [Yes, yes.] And he can't actually describe it at all. Instead, he jumps to the spectacle that was a made of the horror. Right? [Yes.] So, for me horror is the theme, and it's something I've been thinking about. I love that. And that actually dovetails really nicely with my leechy scene, which is actually that scene you just described.
Aaron 17:49
Yeah, yeah, go there.
Evan 18:04
This is now after O.J. and Em's father has died and they're trying to continue his legacy with the horses in Hollywood, but they failed this audition, and so they have to go sell another horse. They take another horse to Jupiter's Claim, which is the amusement park that Jupe runs with his family. Jupiter's Claim– let's maybe put a pin in that. They bring the horse there and they go up there negotiating the price, and Em notices this Mad Magazine, "Gordy's Home" cover. And she asks about it and Jupe– with a gleam in his eyes– says 'oh, let me tell you about this.' And he's like, 'I want to show you this secret room. In fact, a Dutch couple paid me 50k just to sleep there one night.' [Haha!] And they go into it. And he has memorialized his trauma, the most traumatic moment of his life. He has memorialized it. But you're right, Banks, he can't talk about it directly. Instead, he has to go through the details of the SNL sketch with every SNL actor from that time– which was meticulously chosen– everyone was spot on: Chris Kattan, Cheri Oteri, Ana Gasteyer, shouts to all them.
Banks 19:14
Also, like– well done casting them in those roles. It's like, yeah [oh, it's perfect]!
Evan 19:20
But then, you know, his description gives it away, because he says, "Chris Kattan gets up there, and he's killing it on stage." [I know.] "He's killing it on stage as Gordy." And then, in I think a brilliant move, the camera flashes back to the scared young Jupe under the table, looking at the chimp– looking at Gordy. And so that scene to me is painful. It sticks with me. It's the site of sort of original trauma, I think, for Jupe [yeah] that has then led him to create spectacle for others, and in a way that commodifies his trauma in ways that are just like deeply uncomfortable. And I guess I have empathy for it, but I'm also like, disturbed by it. [Oh yeah.] So that's my leechy scene. I can't stop thinking about it– it's both absurd and deeply, deeply sad.
Banks 20:09
There's no doubt. That scene is, like, there's a reason why that's so early in the film. It ties together so many of the things we just talked about. And I mean, for me, I'm torn, because there's scenes that have stuck with me, like traumatically. This is just brutal. But for me, I think the leechiest scene for me is also connected with Jupe. And it is the actual performance. It's the great showcasing stage of the alien, when they all like– here's the show, they have, you know, Lucky in a cage, they're about to feed Lucky to this– you know– UAP coming in. And there's so many homages to other films in this, but like, it's very Alfred Hitchcock– they never show the UFO in the scene. The UAP sorry, they never show it. And so what's so leechy to me is, it's all about– you know– the spectacle of it. It's all about the show, and the presentation, the showmanship, like 'Oh, we're gonna build this up for an hour. Hey, kids, get on your costumes, and come over here, we're gonna put on something.' And then it's watching the eyes of everybody as they look up and see what at first just seems unbelievable. Interesting. Concerning. Terrifying, hopeless [yes] and just frozen. And then you see it just happen. And then the scene ends. And later, you get to see what actually happened. And then like, you get to see all the people in the gizzard. Jordan Peele holds back.
Aaron 21:55
The bloody gizzard, ughh!
Banks 21:59
But, for me, it's that scene of, again, just this tourist trap that ends up being completely– it is consumed by the very spectacle it's sought to appreciate. [Yeah.] And it's like, it's a picture of this entire world of what it means to you know– it's this commentary on what it means to be making movies, to be in the media, which a lot of the times, like, is horrific in the world. And yet we turn that into entertainment. [That's right.] And the entertainment itself is rotting us. And here, it captures us [yeah] and digests us. And then, you know, maybe someone else will talk about the next scene about what happens after the digestion– maybe that's kind of leechy?– But that's a leechy seen for me.
Aaron 22:47
Oh geez, oh my gosh, no, this is so wonderful. Yeah. Because there's this idea that we, when we're viewing entertainment, we're a consumer [uh-huh], so we're caught, we're consuming entertainment. But this entirely flips the script into that idea of being consumed, being devoured by that which you think you're there to consume. [Yep.] For me, I do think there's these two leechy scenes I'm going between. There's the big one, but I'm gonna go for the subtler one. The big one would be– to build on yours, Banks– would be the moment where the alien– is it after that, where the alien eats all the people, and then it goes to their house and vomits blood all over the house? [Yeah.] That seems pretty leechy. And then it spits the silver horse through the windshield of the pickup. [Haha.] That's a memorable scene. That's a leechy scene.
Banks 23:38
It's very memorable.
Aaron 23:39
Sure. Sticks with. But I want to go to a scene that actually takes something more out of me. And it's the scene where O.J. and Emerald are actually in Hollywood. The only time we see them together in Hollywood, and they're there for the shooting of an advertising– like a commercial– in front of a green screen. And that scene is really uncomfortable for me. Because I can see in the film how comfortable O.J. is on the ranch, and how for his entire life, he's been very happy to let his father be the one who puts on the show. And as soon as he's asked to try and become his father, in that moment– it's his first time back in Hollywood after his father's death– he crumbles. [He can't do it.] He crumbles. And then when his sister gets there, all that she cares about is selling herself. She doesn't care about the family. [That's right.] She doesn't care about the horses. She is there to advertise herself, to make a spectacle of herself. And it's kind of embarrassing. The people in– they say like, 'Oh, that was a lot. Wow. It's not what we expected.' And the show she puts on is obviously– it's like also coming from a dark place for her. And that scene illuminates for me how much for everyone in this film, including Jupe Park, what's really going on here is so much to do with childhood anguish. [Yep.] And how for for O.J., he never got to be the big Hollywood horseman that his father was because on the Scorpion King set, they chose camels, and canceled his debut– like, they canceled his debut. For his sister, she never got to train a horse because the Scorpion King deal stole her horse from her. So she became– she developed a grudge against her father and said, 'No, I'm just going to look out for me, that's all I can do.' And so both of them are just acting out this kind of deep pain and deep disappointment that they have. And so that scene just drains a lot out of me– takes a lot out. It's not it's not as big as scenes where a UFO drops out of the sky. But in terms of the human drama of the film, I think it really unlocks a lot of doors later on, if you understand that scene.
Banks 26:09
I think that the thing that's so– that scene, I was also thinking a lot about. When I think about it, and I think about– it's the lack of care. There's just like, nobody cares on set. [Yeah.] And you can see the struggle that's happening with O.J. as he's trying to be in this role. And he actually does care about the safety of the horse and the safety of other people. You can see the sister kind of caring, but also not caring at all. And you can kind of see the like– what ends up happening is the horse nearly knocks the head off of somebody on the set. Doesn't, you know. Everyone's okay. But what's so painful is, it's the lack of care. And this is coming right after they just talked about how their own history got whitewashed. And then they're talking to a group of mostly all white people who just do not give a shit. Right? And the whole point is like– this is, like, to your own detriment, right?
Aaron 27:08
It helps make sense of why O.J. and Emerald might be so desperate to make a spectacle of themselves or of the alien. Because there's a moment where there's an older, sort of curvy white woman who's going to be in the commercial with the horse. And when she walks into the room, the one thing that's said about her– one guy says, "Take a look at all of that." And like, she's a spectacle, right? Her body is a spectacle. Whereas, O.J. and Emerald in that room are almost invisible. [Yeah.] People don't care to know them, or to listen to what they're saying. It's something to get over with, 'Oh, this is a safety check. Get this over with. Don't make this more than it needs to be.' And that helps me put a finger on some of the– I don't know if it's insecurity– but just a desire to be recognized for the talented people that they are, and the the contributions– the authentic contributions– that they do have to make.
Evan 28:08
It makes me wonder, too, if that's sort of a driver of the way that they try to capture on film this alien later. They're kind of of recreating the original motion picture in a way.
Aaron 28:22
O.J. is the black jockey. You can see him so many times as the horsemen being caught on film.
Evan 28:28
I mean his final shot on film is– [that's right]– that really beautiful stylistic shot of him in the fog, right? On the horse, yeah.
Banks 28:36
Literally, he has the little frame of the sign, right? It's a perfect callback.
Aaron 28:41
Perfect callback. Yeah, can I just say also that the moment where the the horse almost kicks the lady's head off– [oh, my gosh]– almost recreates the Gordy spectacle of animals killing people on set? Just saying.
Banks 28:54
Yeah. There's this– that's a really interesting theme– this whole theme of you know, trained animals and things like that. And there's even like, in my leechy scene, Jupe's wife sort of says, 'Be careful, trained animals can be very unpredictable.' [Yes.] Right? And so like, there's this thing that keeps happening throughout.
Evan 29:13
Well in a way, I mean, they are trying to train the UAP as well, right? To less success. But okay, so, who's our leechy characters? Banks, who is it for you?
Banks 29:25
It goes back and forth, but I'm gonna have to go with Jupe Park. I'm gonna have to go with this traumatized child star who– his role is really limited in the film, actually, he doesn't have a lot of screen time. But for me, when I really think about– the way that he lives is through these themes of spectacle, through horror, and also, he's a person who can't look away. [Yeah.] Right? He's addicted to the spectacle and, you know, there's– one of the most iconic shots of the movie is of Jupe just looking up wide eyed and horrified at the spectacle that's about to capture him and consume him. And what we learn in the film is that it is by looking that you feed it, [yes], by looking that you offend it, by looking that you're destroyed by it. And by denying the gaze. And when I think of Jupe's character, he's just not the most likable of characters or guys. But also, he's utterly desperate in his own way. [Yeah]. And I just think– when I think about the characters who are just– he just personifies a leech. He leeches on to, and is trying to suck the life out of, things that really you just need to look away from. You don't need to do that. Right? Had he just looked away, he would have been fine. Well, maybe not fine, probably still traumatized and other things. But he wouldn't have gotten eaten and gizzard-ified.
Aaron 31:07
He so desires to be at the center, right? To be looked at, to be the center of attention, for the eye to be upon him. And so wouldn't– it would only make sense, right? That he would return that gaze. That's the most natural thing in the world for him to do– to not look away because he doesn't want people to look away. He believes that that's precious, essential. And I also think that in his favor is the idea that a leechy character is often someone who's kind of pitiful [ahh, yes] and deeply insecure. And most of the true things about his life are entirely hidden behind show. [Yep.] Showmanship. I mean, it's all fake, it's artificial. He's had to become purely external and artificial to make sense of his life after the incident on "Gordy's Home." And it's just– it's awful. Yeah, it is awful. And I will say, the moment where he looks up, before he's about to be eaten, the look in his eyes is the same look in the child's eyes watching Gordy [it's the same] mutilate, essentially, his castmates. It's this horrified look, and I can't believe that they got the child actor and the adult actor to align so perfectly on that, because that was emotionally potent for me.
Banks 32:30
Yeah, no, it really was.
Evan 32:32
Yeah, so, Jupe was my character as well.
Aaron 32:36
I want to float another one, but comment on Jupe.
Evan 32:38
Yeah, I just have a small comment, which is to pick up on 'pitiful.' One of our indexes for leechy characters is that they're both bold and pathetic. [Wow.] When I first met him, he was definitely that. [He is that.] He is so that. And yet underneath it, right– again, is this trauma, is this pain, is this violence that he has witnessed, that he is both horrified by, but also attracted to, right? And it's that push and pull between horror and attraction, right? That actually leads him to create spectacles for others. I mean, he even did "Gordy's Home" after another show he'd already been in, and then, later in his life, he creates Jupiter's Claim, which again, that word 'claim' right is the Old West word for like, you have a claim for a piece of land, right, you find gold there, you make a claim on it. He's now capturing experiences, dollars, people, spectacles, rooted in the trauma that he's experienced. [Oh my.] But we are talking about someone else.
Aaron 33:42
Well I want to talk about Antlers Holst.
Evan 33:46
Yes. He was on my list too!
Aaron 33:50
Antlers Holst!
Banks 33:51
The raspy bass!
Aaron 33:53
The raspy Antlers Holst who's this old cinematographer who's going to shoot the commercial. So they keep contact with him and try and get him to shoot the shot of the alien with his old film camera. And Antlers Holst is also a minor character in the film. But he is also someone who's obsessed, and obsessed with capturing, right, the impossible shot. And if you notice, he's often obsessively just sitting there while on the phone or doing life– he's like 'I've got a lemon tart in the oven'– he's sitting there watching like weird old documentary footage of predators and prey.
Evan 34:38
Like snakes eating lions, right?
Aaron 34:40
Snakes versus lions, or of the eyes of creatures– like pointing the camera into the creature's eye. And that moment– I don't know if he becomes fully leechy, fully leechified– his transformation is complete when they get the shot. And it's amazing. And it's the Oprah shot. And then he says, "The light. The light" (growling).
Evan 35:13
He wanted the golden hour light.
Aaron 35:14
Because he wanted to re-shoot the shot with the perfect natural lighting. And I actually think it's a brilliant moment of filmmaking when they show him from the alien's-eye-view being sucked into its mouth. Like, you're looking out of the alien's mouth as he's sucked physically off the ground while shooting on his little hand-cam. And it's an amazing– I don't know how Jordan Peele did it. It's an amazing, brilliant shot. But it so potently captures that idea of like– he's looking and being looked at, he's consuming and being consumed. It's all happening in this perfect kind of synchronized moment.
Evan 35:55
He's capturing it as he's being captured.
Aaron 35:57
Yes! [That's right!] And his inability to let it go, right, I think makes him leechy. In a way, what's funny here is that I'm getting "There Will Be Blood" vibes here. Like, Park feels a little bit pitiful to me, like Eli Sunday, the great showman, and Antler's Holst feels a little bit like Daniel Plainview to me. The person who has to be in total and complete control. And it's not good for either of them. [No. That's right.]
Evan 36:26
Wow. Okay. Well, awesome. Okay, so there have been some funny moments we've described. But I think it may be time to head to the beach, guys. I mean, we're in California, after all.
Aaron 36:37
A little vacation, a little Pacific Ocean.
Banks 36:39
That's right.
Evan 36:40
All right, well, let's go to the Leech on a Beach. [music] So I would say that many of my leechy moments, leechy on a beachy moments are from Keke Palmer and her line readings, including, "Five stars, Angel, five stars."
Aaron 37:07
Their back and forth is quite quippy and delightful.
Evan 37:10
It's very funny. So I thought hers was great. And then I also– Angel I thought was another amazing character. Kind of leechy [so funny], very funny. And for me, when he outlines the three options you have with the UAP, which is: intergalactic travelers looking for peace, furistic humans coming back in time to stop us from destroying the planet, or world killers. That would mean they've been watching us, learning, waiting for the perfect time to beam us up and put a metal probe up our asses."
Aaron 37:43
You know who he reminds me of a little bit, for some reason, is kind of– Patrick!
Evan 37:47
Patrick.
Banks 37:49
Oh my gosh, from Eternal Sunshine.
Aaron 37:52
Just because he's kind of like this pitiful guy who just leeches off of everyone else's experience. He's not having a real experience. This isn't his ranch. This isn't his alien. He's just kind of along for the ride.
Evan 38:05
He does put them up in his place for a night
Aaron 38:07
That is sweet. He's better than Patrick, definitely.
Evan 38:09
He has a sweetness about him.
Aaron 38:11
Yeah, but I will say, when he watches their film footage on their security cameras.
Evan 38:17
Yeah, that's not good.
Aaron 38:18
It's like very voyeuristic. [Yeah.] His gaze is a troubled gaze too. [Yes.] At the same– this is Leech on a Beach. Sorry we're on vacation. Yeah, don't bring that kind of talk on vacation.
Evan 38:30
Hey man. I'm trying to have my little vacation vibes.
Banks 38:33
I think the entire conversation around them sort of setting up the– you know, the monster trap here at the end. And this is with– you know, Antlers Holst– and they're like trying to figure out what is– it's hilarious. It's like, line after line, including like, "Who wants to go get the star out of the trailer?" Referencing like, who's gonna be the one to lure out the monster. And it's perfect, right? Like it's actually– it perfectly says like, 'Oh, yeah, this is the sensation: who actually wants to go deal with this diva who's going to eat your your face off.'
Aaron 39:08
And when he quotes the "Giant Purple People Eater" song [haha]– I mean, I think that alone is worth the price of admission to this film. Like, make it that far, everyone, make it that far to the the "Purple People Eater" song. You won't regret it. It's so odd and so perfect. It's like– it is horrific, kind of, but it's so comical. [Yes.] Such a weird sense of humor in this movie. [I love it.] This is a weird beach vacation, yeah.
Banks 39:38
Also, just a shout out to when like the social media TMZ person gets on the motorcycle, and then just like goes, and it goes [fzzz], and he just wipes out [haha!], face plants! It's pretty solid.
Aaron 39:52
That was another leechy character for me, by the way. He is aggressively gross and terrifying.
Evan 39:58
Yeah, scary.
Banks 39:58
Worthy of faceplanting.
Aaron 40:00
A lot of justice done in that moment. [Karma.] "Have you taken a picture? Take a picture, take a picture of me before you help me up." [haha!]
Evan 40:16
All right, well, that was another excellent installment of Leech on a Beach. But, guys, it's time to get serious again. I think we need to talk about the hirudotherapy from this film. What is medicinal about this film? What do we need from it? What is helpful, salutary? What do you guys think?
Banks 40:39
So I think that this movie has– it speaks to the power of refraining. That in a world of, you know– the spectacle– the one who's able to look away is able to retain themselves, right? Like, if they're not captured and taken up with everything, there's a power in that. And like, this is weird– because we should watch the movie, and not, you know, refrain from watching that. But I think that in a world where there's– like– you can look at everything– in a world where you can have everything– you can ask any question– like, there's real power in choosing what we give our attention to. [Yeah.] And there are things that deserve it, and there are things that are seeking to consume us. And I think that's– I think that is powerful. It's also leechy. And it's important in its own way because you don't want to refrain from looking at the things that are hard. And this movie has a lot of those, right? You don't want to look away from things just because they have to do with, you know, difficult aspects of our own history, or things that we have to own, or white washing, or things like that. But we also don't just want to look at something because it's sensational. And I think that the way– I don't have an easy way of describing it– but I do think that this movie brings that– it asked that question in a really interesting, different way than I had thought before. And it really illustrates the power that comes from spectacles and the power that comes from when you choose to just not give it any power anymore.
Evan 42:25
In a way, though, it's like you have power over it in looking away, and that– it doesn't have power over you, but it gives you a kind of power to engage with the alien. Right? They, right– O.J. looks away, he's able to refrain, and that actually gives him the power to have agency and to get what he wants out of the interaction.
Banks 42:46
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah.
Aaron 42:47
I think, yeah, my medicine is connected back to my leechy scene, or I guess I read so much of this movie as– the whole quest to capture the image of the alien has everything to do with, again, unresolved childhood stuff. Unresolved childhood stuff– stuff with their father, stuff with their their own childhood disappointments. And what I see every every major character in this film doing is either trying to resolve or close those doors through their behavior, or just kind of reenacting– continually reenacting– their own problem through a new scenario or new circumstance. So for example, like just the parallels between Gordy the monkey, and the parallels between the horses, and the parallels between the alien [yep] are so profound, right? Everyone who has their issues– their childhood issues– with an animal is working it out on this alien, trying to tame it. When there was something in childhood that was dangerous– can we tame what's dangerous? Trying to– when I couldn't train an animal when I was a child, let me train this dangerous alien to do as I want, because I never got that as a kid. Or, I didn't get to be on the Scorpion King set as a kid– let me put on my Scorpion King sweatshirt and live out that experience now with this alien, this higher stakes situation. And it makes me think a lot that the film, I think, is asking us to reflect on– to what degree do we give those parts of our stories power, those parts of our histories power in our contemporary lives and our adult lives? And it's certainly a cautionary tale to me. It's a cautionary tale about all the spectacle business, but it's also about like, how are you dealing with your unprocessed stuff? You know? [Yeah.] And I think a lot of it is like, for the kids in the Haywood family, it's dad issues. It's dad stuff. [Yeah.] And we don't even hear about mom, but we see a picture of mom on the wall at this crucial moment in the film. And I'm just like, oh, man, I'm not sure these two people have really worked through and kind of processed their childhoods in a way that that would allow them to be their best selves as adults.
Evan 45:33
Yeah. And that makes me think about– sometimes we've talked about on the Leech the power of art and film to take something that was hard or traumatic, and make beauty out of it. And I think there's a way in which I think Jupe in a twisted way is trying to do that– he's trying to make some kind of myth or legend or story out of his pain. [Yeah.] And yet, what he's actually done, I think, is obscure the truth of the story he has– you know, the truth of the story is that the only thing that stops Gordy is when they kill it. [Yeah.] And the truth is, they probably never should have tried to tame that animal in the first place. [Yeah, that's right.] And so, for me, I think there's medicine here in trying to understand that tension between the power of art to create meaning and beauty out of pain– but how careful you have to be in doing that, so that you don't sort of retraumatize or recreate or make false stories that don't heal. [That's right.] Right? But instead reinscribe problems or recreate them.
Aaron 46:44
And I think that's really powerfully demonstrated when, at the great spectacle when the alien swallows up the whole crowd, lo and behold, who's in the crowd, but Mary Jo Elliott, right, the young girl who was mutilated by the monkey? Like he invites her back. He says, 'This is the moment where something from the past will kind of be made right. The spectacle will go right this time. Yes, we couldn't control the monkey. But I can control this alien. Right? She has to be there, so we can rewrite history. We're going to make it right.' And he tries to right the wrong the wrong way. [Yes.] That act isn't going to heal the old wounds. It's going to multiply it.
Evan 47:29
Yeah, I think that's right. Do you think along those lines that the act of taking the photo of the alien will heal the old wounds? [Hmm.] Is there something more more pure of heart about what they did or something that makes that okay?
Banks 47:43
It might give them some money.
Aaron 47:44
The Hayward siblings? I can't tell. It's a really beautifully crafted moment in the film. When she's turning the crank on the wishing well, she has released this huge blow-up doll to be a kind of a false prey for the alien to attack, prey that is its own size up in the skies.
Evan 48:02
It has eyes that can't close!
Aaron 48:04
That can't look away.
Banks 48:05
Yeah, that's great.
Aaron 48:05
So the alien keeps giving all these like weird warning signals, like 'Stop looking, stop looking at me,' and then attacks. She gets the photo by cranking the wishing well camera. But I don't understand– that's an ambiguity for me at the end– it's like, does that do anything? Because there's a huge crowd of journalists thirty feet away. [Yep.] And did they capture it too? Did she get the only shot? I don't know. Like, there's this weird ambiguity where the only thing I take away from the end of the film is when she looks over at her brother. And I'm like, 'Oh, actually, this process made them siblings again.' I think that's what was actually won in that moment. You know, she's not reaching for the photograph and snatching it up and desperately clinging to it and waving it around.
Evan 48:52
She almost forgets about it.
Aaron 48:53
She– I think she sees that it's maybe not the most important thing anymore. [Right, right.] But it's kind of ambiguous, because he's still outlined in the square just like the black jockey in the image from the past. Like he's still there. It's new– but it's also the same thing. Or is it?
Evan 49:18
Can I try out an idea on you guys, that's different than what we've talked about? So I was thinking about this movie, and I was reading some about it. And they interviewed Brandon Perea, The New York Times, they interviewed him about the film and the process. And he said that Jordan Peele sent him a bunch of movies to watch ahead of this. That's right, including a bunch of Spielberg movies like 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind,' 'JAWS,' and 'No Country for Old Men,' which we could talk about, but I actually want to think about the alien Spielberg movie, 'Close Encounters,' and I think about, like, in so many Spielberg movies, right, it's kind of famous, the Spielberg face, right? It's the people looking at something with wonder and awe. And I I think Jordan Peele is– he is winking at that, but also doing something so different. [Yeah.] Banks, you made a joke a minute ago about, 'they probably got paid.' [Yeah.] And I think there's a way in which Em and O.J. are so desperate that they don't have time for wonder at this alien. Like, they see it, and they're like, immediately, 'We gotta save the ranch, we gotta save our home. This is what we got to do. And so–
Banks 50:25
They don't have that luxury.
Evan 50:26
They don't have the luxury, right? Or the privilege, right? Of being just, you know, bowled over in wonder like the Spielberg movies. Which, Spielberg is great, but I found that so like refreshing and thought provoking. And just like– what are we doing when we when we make alien movies? And I think Jordan Peele raises so many more challenging, interesting questions about the genre that he's playing with that I just hadn't thought about. I love that.
Banks 50:52
Yeah, no, totally. I agree.
Aaron 50:54
I wonder about the 'No Country' connections. I think some of it has to do with maybe the idea of hunting. I mean, we talked about [tracking!] tracking and hunting, right?
Banks 51:05
And the West.
Aaron 51:06
I think there's those connections. Between this like all powerful enemy that you're trying in some way to outsmart and control. [Yeah.] I think it's about the landscape.
Evan 51:15
I mean, O.J.'s dad, he's old. And he doesn't– it's not a country for him anymore. Yes, perfect object. I mean, there's a bunch of object lessons like that, you know, Jupiter's Claim is literally a terrorist– a tourist trap, right? Yeah.
Aaron 51:19
No Country for Old Men. Can we just talk about how literal it is that a coin goes through eye and there's literally like money in his brain? He's got like money on the mind when he dies. It's a trap. Yeah.
Banks 51:41
Here's one that threw me. What's up with the shoe?
Evan 51:44
Oh, that's up?
Banks 51:46
The upright, blood-dotted shoe [that was weird] in the Gordy scene. Like, it's interesting. It draws you in– like something weird's happening here. [Yeah.] But it's just like, perfectly balanced, standing upright. I can't figure it out. But you know, that's there.
Evan 52:02
Yeah, it seems like maybe a symbol both of like childhood innocence and mystery, or some kind of miracle. "What's a bad miracle?"
Aaron 52:11
Yeah, it's like standing on in a way that it shouldn't. And so he– and it's what he can see from under the table. Yeah. So it's what he preserves. He memorializes it. In his memorial to the event. [Yeah.] Wow.
Evan 52:24
Okay. Are we ready to rate this film on leechiness? I can start.
Banks 52:30
Give us a number.
Evan 52:31
I'm it two, maybe three. Two maybe three. I think it's definitely painful. It takes something out of me to watch. You know, we picked great leechy scenes. But we also missed some of the like more traditional horror scenes. I think about the one where he goes into the place where they– the stables. The light's on and the sprinkler, and then he turns it off, and then it turns back on. And it's like, very traditional alien. And then like little aliens seem to be crawling out and I'm like, 'Arghhh!."
Banks 53:04
Then he punches one!
Evan 53:05
And then it's like– it's actually one of Jupe's kids.
Aaron 53:07
One of Jupe's kids, yeah.
Evan 53:08
Yeah [that's great]. But to me, the tension was building there. So there's a bunch of scenes like that too, right. So it does take it out of me. It has stuck with me. Now after a couple of viewings, I'm still thinking about, like, 'What is happening here? What's he doing?' And like we just discussed, I think there's a lot, a lot to chew on. So I'm probably a two because it didn't– there was enough humor that it didn't take it all out of me. But I could probably be talked into three.
Aaron 53:34
I think there's a really– something that happens– because often a really really leeching movie, it is very visceral. And I think when you're watching a horror movie, horror is often really visceral too, it kind of– it activates the senses, it activates kind of your fight or flight system inside. And I wonder if it's easy to kind of confuse those two forms of viscerality. The leechy– the really, really leechy– and then just, 'there's some horror stuff going on here.' And I think in this movie, it's confusing. I think there's some blurring there [yeah] because of how much reflection this movie is asking us to do– at the same time that it really does want us to have jumpscares and be afraid. And I think it's an interesting combination. [It is.] But I think for me that that cheapens it a little bit. [Okay.] Not a lot a bit. Some might say that actually is more potent– like why not gather those forces? Why not let them cooperate? For me, I've never been much of a horror person. And I think the blend of comedy and horror here makes it too much– makes it more about kind of entertainment than that kind of rich medicinal reflection for me. So I think I'm at two, you know, for that reason: because of the raw horror elements, and then because of the the humor. So I enjoyed this film, but I didn't feel kind of existentially bowled over by it. I think I think 'Get Out' for me was probably a three or four leecher. But this one, I'm like, okay, a two. Like, "Us," his second big film, was just so much horror that I couldn't really take medicine from it because I was just so horrified and uncomfortable. Whereas this one, I think he's looking for that balance. He's really looking for that balance between leechy and horrifying. I'm at two.
Banks 55:34
Yeah, I think I'm at two as well. You know, I've gone back and forth. There are moments when I was learning more about the film and like, seeing– this is a very thoughtful film. Appreciating some of that artistry pushed me to three. And then at other times, I was like, that's just like– it didn't get me there. I dropped all the way down to one. But I think that I've balanced right into the Goldilocks Zone of a two. And I think that that's just because, you know, I agree with what you guys have said– it's thoughtful, like there is a lot of depth here. At the same time, I resonate with what you say, Aaron, about it. It feels like there's a lot of entertainment here. And even like the name of the film, Jordan Peele sort of said one of the reasons why this is named "Nope" was because people often when they hear horror, may go, "Nope." And he was trying with this thing to bring them into the theater and be like, 'Hey, horror can be for more people than that.' And I think that he succeeded with that. But if you compare this with like 'Parasite,' where you compare this with, you know, even 'No Country for Old Men,' or you compare it with, you know, 'There Will Be Blood' or 'The Master' or some of these other feature films, you don't need to work to enjoy the film. Right? It's a film that you can really just sort of sit back and just enjoy and it's fun. But I think that I– what surprised me pleasantly, is like, 'Oh, if you really get into this, like, you there's so much depth here.' But it doesn't demand it of you– it's optional.
Aaron 57:06
It's optional. It's optional, totally, actually. [Interesting.] And I also think what takes me from three leeches to two is the alien's final form, which I found so unpersuasive and hideous. I was like, Why does the alien have to explode into like– why does it have to expand from a UFO into a large piece of fabric that floats around? That wasn't horrifying to me.
Banks 57:29
It was kind of elegant.
Aaron 57:31
It was a huge letdown, actually. I really didn't like it. You liked it?
Banks 57:34
I thought it was elegant. I wouldn't say it was horrific.
Aaron 57:36
I didn't understand, like, why do that?
Evan 57:39
I don't know, either.
Banks 57:41
It was unexpected.
Evan 57:41
I guess, yeah– one of my questions is around the third act and the choice of setting that final scene in the daytime. And now we've watched a very scary movie, in my opinion, that ends in the daytime in a very scary way called 'Midsommar.' [Oh, yeah, true.] And that, to me was far scarier than this.
Banks 58:02
That was a scary movie.
Evan 58:03
Now, I wonder if a more traditional horror film might have made that alien scene in the dark or at night.
Banks 58:10
Which they did great night scenes in this movie.
Evan 58:12
The night scenes were awesome. And that's where I felt the most sort of tension in my body. [Yeah, absolutely.] So I think artistically, I like that they that Jordan Peele made the choice to do it that way. I think it was contemplative in a way, and unexpected. But I did think it lost something of the viscerality by just that choice of having it during the daytime, among other choices there, but it took me out of it a little bit.
Aaron 58:37
I'm wondering– and I think that the final twenty minutes of this, maybe the third act, I think was the weakest for me. [Yeah.] I think they spend a little bit too much time dwelling on the great quest, and like, the montage lead-up to all that. I felt like some of the big questions got lost just for the entertainment. But I'm wondering, wait, was the alien, because it had met O.J., did it finally feel like it could show its true self? Is that why it expands out into this big bubbly flowing creature thing? But it's so unclear; it's so un-explained. It doesn't feel necessary or earned– the transition of the alien into its larger true form– that I was likez– it wasn't persuasive to me, as I say. I can't go past two leeches now as I say that. Yeah.
Evan 59:31
All right. Very fair.
Banks 59:32
Two leeches. Another rare agreement.
Evan 59:34
Yeah. Okay, well, listeners we would love to know what your leech rating is, as well as your thoughts, opinions, feelings about this movie. Please reach out to us as always @leechpodcast on Twitter, @theleechpodcast on Instagram, and theleechpodcast.com. We love hearing from y'all. So thanks for listening. As always, I'm Evan Cate, joined by Banks Clark and Aaron Jones. Thanks, guys.
Aaron 59:59
Adios.
Banks 1:00:00
See you next time.
Evan 1:00:09
This episode was hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron Jones. Editing by Evan Cate. Graphic Design by Banks Clark. Original music by Justin Klump of Podcast Sound and Music. And equipment help and consultation from Topher Thomas.