The guys do podcast karaoke after viewing Sofia Coppola’s 2003 film Lost in Translation.
After considering leech journeys atop Japanese deer (1:32), Aaron, Banks and Evan dive into Lost in Translation’s leechiest themes (8:55), scenes (21:08), and characters (29:51). To get some relief, the guys head to the shore for Leech on a Beach (40:43). They conclude by considering the film’s medicinal qualities (43:32) and giving an overall rating -- from 1 to 4 -- of the film’s leechiness (52:38).
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Evan 00:28
Hello everyone! Welcome back to the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. I am your host, Evan Cate, and I am joined by two members of the cover band Sausalito, Aaron Jones and Banks Clark.
Aaron 00:41
What's up?
Banks 00:42
It's good to be here.
Evan 00:44
This podcast is a show about movies that suck the life out of you, but they also stick with you, and they may even be good for you– like a leech. Today, we will be discussing the 2003 film "Lost in Translation," which was written and directed by Sofia Coppola. And this film actually won the Oscar for Best Original Screenplay in 2004. It stars Bill Murray and Scarlett Johansson, and we have much to discuss. Before we do so, of course, we want to remind you that we're always looking to expand our pond. So please reach out to us @leechpodcast on Twitter, @theleechpodcast on Instagram, and theleechpodcast.com. All right. We need to pause here and take a moment to learn about leeches. Aaron, take us away.
Aaron 01:32
With pleasure, Evan, with pleasure. As listeners know, I often like to draw connections between the films we're watching and the leeches we're studying. Of course, this film, set in Japan, got me looking into Japanese leeches, which actually I had already done earlier in the film– earlier in the season, excuse me– for "The Master." [That's right.] In "The Master," I talked about the increase in Japanese land leeches that had been found recently the 'haemadipsa japonica' is the varietal.
Banks 02:03
Who could forget that one?
Aaron 02:04
And I found another article about the same subject that actually connects to some other things from the season. You'll notice that earlier in the season, I also talked about how scientists were using DNA found from the blood of meals that leeches had eaten to determine other animals that were in the leeches' environment. And I'd also talked about leeches traveling on the prey that they suck on. You know what I mean? [Yes.] The way that leeches travel. [Leeches on a plane.] Leeches on a plane, the classic film! This article I found from 'Ecology and Evolution' from 2020 is about a specific kind of prey of these Japanese 'haemadipsa japonica' land leeches, because a lot of towns like Kyoto – which is one that comes up in the film, very importantly – have noticed an increase in these land leeches biting people's ankles or their necks, you know. And they realize it's– it has a lot to do with this kind of deer called the sika deer. And as the sika deer, who don't have many predators now, have increased their population, they've been bringing the leeches down from higher elevations down toward the more habited places of Japan. But also get this– [Oh God.] Some of these leeches used to eat frogs. They used to eat frog blood pretty frequently, but listen to this quote about as they're feeding on the sika deer: "The sika deer increases their reproductive energy." [Oh, okay.'] Those blood meals have higher reproductive energy given, compared to those of frog species. So I was thinking, wow, this is really interesting that not only are the the prey carrying the leeches down from the mountains, but their blood– they have so much more blood than the frogs that it causes the leeches to multiply faster! [Okay.] So why are there more land leeches in Japan these days? Folks, I hope I cleared that up for you.
Evan 04:10
Wow. Thank you.
Banks 04:12
Wow, keep that in mind next time you visit Japan. Be ready for an increase in leech numbers.
Evan 04:17
Or if you want to avoid leeches, avoid deer. Yeah, the sika deer especially. Yes, yes. Wow. Well, thanks, Aaron. for that. We're gonna transition now to talk about this film "Lost in Translation." We want, of course, to remind listeners that we spoil these movies that we talk about. So if you've not seen this movie, please go watch it wherever you screen movies, and then come back and listen to the pod. We also want to give a content warning at the start. This movie is rated R. It is intended for adult audiences. So take care of that as you consider the film. Alongside that, we want to take a minute right now to just name the fact that the star of this film, Bill Murray– in the last year or so a number of allegations have come to light about his personal and professional behavior, including verbal and physical abuse, and altercations with castmates and people in his life. Without getting into the details of those, we just want to acknowledge those. We know that listeners will be bringing a lot of different experiences with Bill Murray, through his films and other experiences, to this conversation. And so we just want to name that upfront and acknowledge it. Anything else you guys would want to say about that?
Aaron 05:32
I guess I would just say that I did screen the movie recently with a group of folks who– several of whom were seeing "Lost in Translation" for the first time. And that definitely was on their minds. It was difficult, maybe, to watch the film without some of those experiences, some of those news stories and allegations, coming into the room with the film and with the people watching it. Which is totally natural and really important. And I just wanted to name that, yeah, that was on my mind too.
Banks 05:59
Yeah, and I think especially, you know, a central premise of the movie, as we'll talk about in the plot summary, is Bill Murray, an older man, and Scarlett Johansson (who's playing a– was 18 at the time of filming– and plays, you know, there). And some of the allegations do have to do with Bill Murray being in inappropriate situations or inappropriate touching with younger women. Like, that's very relevant. And it's a challenge.
Evan 06:26
Yeah, thanks. So we just want to begin the conversation acknowledging that we do think this film has much to discuss, and much that is worthwhile to discuss. We'll focus mostly on the characters and the themes of the film as we go, of course, with an eye toward leechiness. But we thought we'd be remiss if we didn't begin there. All right, so Banks. Tell us what happened in this movie.
Banks 06:49
Yeah, let's jump into it. So, Bill Murray's character is Bob Harris, who's a famous actor who, I think, his career is somewhat behind him. But he is in Japan to sponsor whiskey, Santori whiskey. We also– so he's staying at this sort of luxury hotel. Then we also meet Charlotte, who is Scarlett Johansson's character, who is traveling with her husband, John, and he's a photographer there for business. And she is just tagging along. She doesn't really have much of a career, she's straight out of school and still trying to figure out her way in life. And we learn that both of these people, both Bob and Charlotte, are sort of in struggling marriages. Bob's sort of been in a– he has kids– he's been married for 25 years. Charlotte, they're newlyweds, only in their second year. But both are sort of lost in life, and also sort of lost within the culture of Japan as they're traveling there. And as they're staying at the same hotel, they start to take an interest in one another, and they start to develop feelings. And as their relationship grows, Bob decides to extend his stay. And they explore the city together. And there is various, you know, shenanigans and having fun and going out and just trying to navigate their lives and trying to figure out where they are and where they're going. In the very end, Bob decides to return home, he doesn't extend his stay any further. But he doesn't leave before whispering something secret in Charlotte's ear before saying goodbye. That's the movie.
Evan 08:30
Right, yes, we have much to discuss in there.
Banks 08:33
Yeah, that's true.
Aaron 08:33
And I love– one of the things about this film is that– also watching it with fresh eyes with some folks– it's an incredibly slow movie. [Yes.] And it's incredibly character-driven, rather than plot-driven. And so it doesn't always feel like you really have a strong sense of direction while you're watching the film, because people are literally lost and metaphorically lost!
Evan 08:35
Yeah, that's right. So we want to begin by talking about leechy themes of this film. Just to remind the audience, 'leechiness' describes things that are painful on the first viewing or the first experience, they might take something out of you, but then they stick with you, they stay with you, and you keep pondering, and the,n as you think about it some more, maybe they become good for you. So we want to think about some themes in this movie that are leechy. So I'll start us off. And I was gonna say, 'photography,' but I think I want to be a little more specific and say my theme of 'snapshots.'
Aaron 09:29
Ohhh!
Banks 09:29
Snap shots. All right.
Evan 09:34
The film not only is not really plot driven, it feels so much more like a tone poem– or like these various vibes or moods– through the end of the film– both the cinematography, of course– but also we're following Charlotte's husband who's a photographer, that's why she's there. Bob himself is there to be photographed and filmed. But a couple of key moments are when they look at these snapshots, right? Charlotte looks at one of her and John, her husband. At a moment she's– it's unclear what she's feeling. But she's maybe longing for a time when they were happier, I don't know. And Bob, at one point, looks at a snapshot of Charlotte from a night where they were out doing karaoke and partying. And I just thought about that theme– this movie feels like such a series of vignettes and snapshots [yeah] of two people who are wandering, lost in certain ways. And the piece I really want to think about is– what are these images, these snapshots that they take? There's so much longing in them, right? Maybe longing for a time when they felt close to someone, or longing for the possibility of connection with someone new? What do those snapshots do for them? And what do they do to us as we watch them? So I felt so much loneliness and longing as I looked at the snapshots in the imagery of this film. And that's really stuck with me. It's taken something out of me. And I think there's a lot there.
Aaron 11:00
Yeah, absolutely.
Banks 11:02
Yeah. It's striking to think about snapshots. And, you know, when Bob is looking at his own snapshots, he doesn't have any snapshots of his wife. Right ? [No.] The only ones he has are of Charlotte, right? And so there's– we never really meet, we only hear the voice of– we actually hear a lot the voice of his wife, right? That's a really interesting thing.
Aaron 11:27
Only really through phone calls and faxes, by the way. Love the technology in this film.
Evan 11:35
It was a simpler time, the fax machine.
Aaron 11:37
It was twenty years ago.
Banks 11:38
I mean, so it connects– the reason I bring it up is, you know, it came up a lot in my summary. For me when I think of the theme, like, it might be obvious, but it is 'lost.' It is, you know, the lacking of direction, it is the wandering, it is this theme of individuals who might at some point have thought they knew what they were doing, and now have no idea. [Yes,.] Whether it's, you know, Bob's acting career, and now he's out promoting a whiskey, which he can't even drink on set. They give him tea [haha]. And he says, like, 'But I'm doing this, instead of, you know, being in a play.' These two individuals who were, you know– thought that they were in happy marriages, but are both completely lost, looking for something that they just do not have and lying about it actively, and developing those things. And you wonder, you know, aren't they just getting even more lost in this process? Like, what are they trying to find so desperately that they're willing to give up what they had? Give up the very thing that they do have in order to try to find something new. And this sense of lost, perhaps added on to that, a sense of desperate seeking, as well. [Yeah.] And how being lost cultivates a desperation that– where does it lead? Where does it lead?
Aaron 13:03
Well, that leads me right into my theme, which is 'crisis.' Yeah. Crisis, to be in a state of crisis. There's lots of jokes about the extent to which Bob is in a midlife crisis. Maybe he needs to get a Porsche [haha]. And you know, Charlotte, obviously, in a state of crisis, totally adrift. A young-life crisis, rather than a midlife crisis. And I see that when you're in a state of crisis, and you don't know what your next step is– I mean, both of these people know that they don't want to be where they are now. And in fact, Bob is really in Japan, partly because he doesn't want to be near his family. He's kind of getting away from them, trying to put them in the rearview mirror, so that he can breathe a little, enjoy himself a little. He really only gets himself into a new situation where he feels out of place and out of context. And there are these moments in the film where Charlotte talks about how she has tried, you know, numerous things. She's tried photography herself, by the way [yes] – to go back to snapshots – and found that to be a failed enterprise. She talks about– she's tried writing, but she hates everything she writes. And what's interesting, I think, is to read her character as someone who is creative, and doesn't yet know their outlet– doesn't understand what to do with that urge in themselves. And I think this film is so interesting, because it shows two people who are in crisis, and who don't know where to go next, who don't like where they are, who are also pretty cynical about their own past choices that have led them to where they are, and their only way forward, the outlet that they find, is just human connection with pretty unlikely partners. [Yeah.] You can imagine that in no other context than in the one of this story, would these two characters find themselves in the kind of context they do– talking to each other, spending time together.
Evan 15:07
The intimacy, right?
Aaron 15:09
There's a really strange intimacy that develops. And in fact, it's one of the reasons that even though this film, you know, we've just talked about some of these controversies that surround it– I want to celebrate Sophia Coppola's vision for the film, which I think is about a certain kind of human connection and human intimacy that is not often explored in cinema. [Yeah.] I think it's a really unusual connection that these characters develop in a state of crisis.
Banks 15:36
Question is, is the crisis coming together? They're seeking relief. But are these just like, two pieces of wreckage that just kind of crash into one another? Right? In the end, have they actually caused each other more damage than they had before?
Aaron 15:54
I don't think so. [Yeah.] I totally don't think so. I mean, my reading of the film is that they, they needed this experience somehow, to remind them both that they have a North Star to follow, which is not each other actually. They both leave, in this film, but I think they've been reminded that they do have directions to travel, meaning worth seeking. But I also think they probably both realize that that's not in the marriages they've been in. I think they're in better shape afterward.
Evan 16:26
Oh, Aaron, you're such an optimist. [I know.] Such a romantic. No, it's funny, I think intimacy is the right word. I don't know if romanc is. I mean, there are a moments [correct] that feel romantic [correct] between them. But there's also moments where Bob feels like this older mentor, almost like a father figure to her. [Absolutely.] And then it– but it oscillates between those: a kind of flirtation, but also dad figure, which is kind of leechy, that's kind of uncomfortable.
Aaron 16:54
Confidante, friend, like– there's just a lot of–
Evan 16:57
But then it has these really tender moments, right? And some of the embrace– like when they fall asleep in bed together at the end, and he holds her foot. Like that's so tender and precious, I think. I don't know, Banks. What do you– you have a look in your eye.
Banks 17:11
So I'm gonna push back. I think it's creepy as hell. I think that he– I think that there's something here that is like– there might be something genuine and maybe, but my read on it is that here, you got an older guy who's using his fame, doing the same thing that he might have been doing his entire life. [Yeah.] Which is, going to the next thing, and guess how the movie ends? He's probably going to do the exact same thing over again. And he used another person in the process.
Aaron 17:45
Nah, I completely disagree.
Evan 17:48
Oh man!
Banks 17:50
I think if you look at how it works, like– he's romantically interested in her the entire time.
Evan 17:57
I think you can definitely read it that way. I mean, he stares at her in the elevator first. She makes some gestures toward him. But he is definitely available.
Aaron 18:05
She initiates, though, their connection.
Banks 18:09
And I think she plays a young character who could conceivably– is just like getting led on into something.
Aaron 18:16
Nah, I think that's a total misread of the film. I mean, I think that the filmmaker shows us Bill Murray hooking up with a woman his age, which he can easily do, he doesn't even have to try, it's entirely effortless with the level of fame that he has.
Evan 18:29
The lead singer of Sausalito, you mean?
Aaron 18:30
Yeah, exactly [haha]. It's meant to be a foil. I mean, when Bill Murray is, you know– there's a woman at the end, a drop dead gorgeous blonde, you know, who comes up and tries to talk to him. Like, he can get that kind of attention. He can get it all he wants. He doesn't even have to try with the level of fame that he has. But he has this other connection that's not sexually consummated. It's not– the only time they ever kiss at all is this final farewell at the end where they'll never see each other again. It's an entirely different relationship and type of connection that I think is surprising to him. And I think that's why he finds it interesting, because it's so unlike the other kinds of connections that he commonly has with women.
Banks 19:13
Maybe. I will say, they did kiss in the elevator twice [on the cheek!]. Still, it was– still a kiss– but I will also say is the only reason– that in each of those other interactions, there is an offense that occurs precisely because Charlotte almost is, or already has– in some ways already inhabited that space for him. When he wakes up the next morning, he feels guilt not for his wife, but because of Charlotte. [It's implied.] Right. And the thing he looks for at the end of the film when there's this other woman, right, he doesn't just leave. He leaves because Scarlet– sorry, because Charlotte has that place. So I think there's a little bit more things here. But I hear your point. I hear your point.
Aaron 20:07
Well, what I think is interesting is that they come to inhabit this space in one another's lives that surprises them both. [That's fair.] Like when Charlotte learns that he's slept with the singer from the band, she's really jealous and upset, but it's like, Wait, she has no right to be! Like, ultimately, the only claim that she would have is just the fact that they have, in a short time, become special to each other as human beings. [Yeah.] And that was gonna be my other leechy theme was the word 'special.' [Ahh!] Because in the karaoke scene, she sings a song about, like, being special. And he's kind of looking at her and mouthing the lyrics and they're having this moment. And that's what's at stake– her husband doesn't make her feel special. [Yeah.] And later on, he'll even comment on that– they both kind of comment on each other's worst flaws in their big fight at the restaurant. But more on that in leechy scenes, I think.
Evan 21:09
I think we should get into leechy scenes, because we've already named some really good ones. So Banks, what's your leechy scene?
Banks 21:16
There are several of them. And it's every time Bob talks to his wife.
Aaron 21:20
Oh, shudder!
Banks 21:21
It's leechy. Because we don't know the history, we don't know. All we know is that there's a family– a large family– right? He has multiple kids. We know that his wife seems to be doing a lot of work, it looks like trying to like renovate or build a house. And is also reminding him of all these things, like: talk to your daughter. By the way, you forgot your son's birthday. Right? And like, there's tons of resentment. And there's a lot of toxicity, it's clearly a very unhappy marriage in lots of ways. They don't even say 'I love you' on the phone. But in these scenes, I think, Bill Murray does a really effective job of just conveying the loss of hope, the loss of intimacy, and it is in this space that should be the space of it– he's just lying. He's making stuff up about Japanese surfers, right, being at some party with– He did meet a Japanese surfer.
Evan 22:16
There it was someone who went surfing, yes.
Aaron 22:23
But he tells the story in a way that's pretty dishonest, yeah.
Banks 22:26
Yeah. And so he's going through– and in those scenes, it just tells this, this story of loss. And like, again, when I talk about being lost, here's the map of where he has been, and what he pretty much chooses to step away from. Which is why, like, is he actually going to be able to ever return? And I don't know, that's a question for me. We can take that up later. But for me, those 'talking with the wife' scenes are the worst. For me though, the one where he's talking on his phone on the bed is the leechiest.
Evan 23:02
I think it's the hot tub one where he says he wants to eat better, eat more Japanese food and not as much pasta. And she's like, 'If you like it's so much, why don't you stay there?' [Haha.] Yeah, very leechy, Banks. Agreed.
Aaron 23:19
Wow. I'm really torn between two. I'm so torn between two. I'm gonna say one, but then I want to give an honorable mention. [Yeah, do it.] So I think the one I want to talk about is the scene that stuck with me the most after the movie was off. It was the one where Charlotte and Bob are lying in bed and just talking about life. [Yes.] And it's this really– it's shot in this really interesting way. They're kind of just both lying there, kind of looking at the ceiling for a while, and the camera's over top of them. And it feels like this really art-film, kind of wonderful shot.
Banks 23:54
Very like Eternal Sunshine, right? Lying on the ice.
Aaron 23:57
Absolutely, indie film kind of shot. [Yeah.] And Charlotte asks him, 'Does it get easier?' And he says, 'No. Yes.' It's this scene where you can see that she's looking for answers. And he's trying to tell the truth about life as he understands it. It's one of those moments where she really is talking to him in ways that sounds so much like he's a mentor or father figure. Like she's– they're both very aware of this age differential between them. And I don't think she'd be there if she didn't think, 'Okay, maybe I could, maybe this person could offer me some direction, some wisdom.' And then it's just the way that the conversation is framed, the way that they each talk about kind of their interior lives. Because so much of this movie takes place at the exterior level, or you're not given a long backstory, you're only given a snapshot, you're only given a little piece of dialogue. And so having these characters really open up, I think it's this moment where their intimacy is at its most developed, at its most bare. Again, no one's naked. But both people are naked. Emotionally.
Evan 25:12
Yeah. Well, and then they sleep together.
Aaron 25:14
Yeah, they sleep in the same bed with their clothes on and everything.
Evan 25:18
They dont' make love, yeah.
Aaron 25:18
But it's why it's why you can talk about an 'emotional affair,' because like they're emotionally bare with one another in that moment. [Yeah.] And when Bill Murray talks about, like, ways that he does– maybe he doesn't like the marriage that he's in, and marriage is really hard– but he actually does love his children in a way. There's a huge blockage around that because of his marriage, but he exposes something of himself then. And I think, knowing the context, both of the relationships with these people are in, that scene becomes really leechy for me. My honorable mention is their fight at the restaurant after she's discovered that he has slept with the singer, and they're looking at the menu, and all the menu items look gross and the same. It's just quite a scene.
Evan 25:26
Yeah, and he says, 'You didn't have someone to just shower you with attention.' [Yeah.] That was on my shortlist as well.
Aaron 26:17
Yeah, it's an ugly scene. And she's just making fun of how washed up and what a loser he is in his career, and everything. I mean, they both– really it's almost as intimate as the scene in the bedroom. Because they're totally prodding the other person's insecurity. [Absolutely.] They like– they deeply see each other, at best and worst.
Evan 26:38
Yes, I think that's right. So my final two included the bedroom scene that you described, Aaron. But the one I want to talk about is a different scene, also during the karaoke, but I want to highlight a different song. And I want to highlight the one that Bill Murray– the second one, he sings– which is by Roxy Music, called "More Than This." [That's right.] And I'll just read the chorus. The lyrics, actually, I think, connect to this film in many ways. But here's the chorus: "More than this, there is nothing more than this. Tell me one thing more than this. There is nothing." And I think there's a couple of ways to read that lyric, and the way he– and the way Bob performs it. It's so almost monotone. It's almost like he's defeated in certain ways. He's weary. Right? He's weathered. And so there's a way you can read "There's nothing more than this" as this sort of like, 'This is all there is,' it's sort of nihilistic. It's bleak. It's cynical. And yet in that moment, you see this connection between him and Charlotte. And there's almost a sense of like, 'There's nothing more than this moment, that is actually full of beauty and possibility.' And so it's this moment of both nihilism, and a kind of euphoria for Bob, or this kind of ecstasy for him, even though he doesn't really show it. But he has a weird way of showing it. [Yeah.] But I thought that scene just stuck with me, because the scene up until that moment is very funny. They're all drunk and high and singing silly songs with wigs on. And then all of a sudden, it gets like, so serious, and moving and poignant. And you see how sad this guy is, but also this like little ray of hope that he has because of his connection with Charlotte that's developing. And that stuck with me on multiple viewings.
Banks 28:34
Yeah. There's a real tension in those in those lyrics. And I agree, I think the performance is very– it is a very evocative way of seeing that, and it makes me think, like, 'Will there ever be more than this'? Is the film saying, is this all there is to offer?
Evan 28:52
Yeah. And they're both asking that question– each character in a different sort of way. Right? [Absolutely.] So Charlotte's young, but she's a philosophy major, right, who doesn't know what she wants to do with her life. In this weird marriage where she's not fulfilled? Like, is there more than this? Like, does it get easier, you know?
Aaron 29:10
Yeah, you can see that in her life she has– she also lives in this total state of conflict where she's done that philosophical work. She's studied, you know, the big ideas. But what she's done with her life is actually position herself in this really familiar narrative of, fall in love, get married, do these things. She has a successful, you know, partner; she doesn't have to work. I mean, she's sort of fallen into a narrative that really doesn't work for her as someone who's developed a life of the mind that was much too big for that box. And it's one of the reasons– just to transition into leechy characters a little bit– obviously this film has these two protagonists, these two central characters. It's hard to say almost, which is leechier. I think hard to say. But you know, in Charlotte's favor. I mean– well this is one of the ways that I think the film– aghh, it's really difficult, because the film begins in a way that I think is pretty uncomfortable. [Yeah.] It begins with the camera trained on Charlotte's body. You know, it's aimed at– her butt is like right there in underwear. That's the opening scene. And I think one of the things that's interesting, and maybe makes her a little more leechy for me than Bob, is that Bob at least has this entourage of people who have come to dote on him and care about him. [Yes.] She has no one who's doting on her or caring about her. Her loneliness, her isolation, is much more complete than his. In fact, when she starts to have– kind of to really let her feelings out– and have an emotional breakdown, she reaches out to– is it a friend?
Banks 31:03
It's more like a mother or a parent or something?
Evan 31:06
I thought it was her mom, yeah. Banks, you look like you're thinking about something?
Aaron 31:07
Someone who should care for her, should be close to her, and just kind of blows it off: 'Oh, aren't you having a good time? Aren't you having a good time in Tokyo? Hope you are, I'm sure everything's fine. Bye.' And it's like, wait a minute, who does she have, you know, to really show her inner life to? And I feel like she needs someone to help her understand what she's feeling. And so the underwear thing, I chatted about this with friends the other night, I was like, man– it really feels like there's multiple ways to read what's happening there. The charitable read is that actually, it's a sign of how much she's given up. She literally just kind of sits around in her underwear all day, knowing that no one is going to see her, and no one's going to care. And so really, like if she's there without the camera, I think it actually is just a sign of lethargy, depression, defeat, but with the camera there, it becomes more complicated and odd, because it seems like the camera's really interested in how curvaceous her body is and how lovely she is. And so when I– but it's odd, because also, it feels like the camera sometimes slips into looking at her with kind of a male gaze. But this is a female filmmaker, which makes me think and makes me want to read that quality – of her life, just sitting around in her underwear – as actually just something that's a function of how she's struggling, and how alone she is. Now, she doesn't have to put on clothes and put on a performance, because there's no one to watch the performance. So she's a really leechy character for me, because of that isolation, because of that loneliness, because of that sense of being out of place. That's what I got. Oh yeah. Well, I think that, you know– I was a philosophy major once. And so there are things that I relate to about that: you know, career change, or trying to figure out– and so there's a lot of things that, you know, I think I can relate to about Charlotte's character through the film. And I do– I can't really speak to the opening scene of what that is. I'm not sure how to read that opening scene. But I do think that so much of this film is playing with ideas of hopelessness, playing with ideas of giving up, of depression, of being lost, right? And I think that for me she is a genuinely lost person. And I think the leechy things for me, the thing that really makes her character leechy for me, are the moments of her going to a Buddhist temple and feeling nothing.
Evan 33:54
Yeah, that hit me, too.
Banks 33:55
Her going to these places, and trying to experience the reality of the ideas she's studied, and finding them hollow. [Yeah.] And that's something that I just find very honest about the film. I think it's very leechy. I think one of the great pitfalls of people who live a life of the mind is they don't live life. [wow]
Evan 33:59
I think two scenes stand out about Charlotte, there are two that I think both of you have kind of hit on– which is the scene where she goes and begins to tend to different flowers or trees, at some kind of pruning session looked like it was all women. It felt like something that was very traditional. And then also when she's in Kyoto, she sees this woman dressed very traditional garb, going through some kind of traditional ceremony where, again, Aaron, it made me think as you're describing how she's, even though she's lived this life of the mind, she's fallen into these sort of stereotypical patterns for women throughout societies and cultures for a long time. So she's seeing these images in Japanese culture of sort of traditional roles for women. And she's both, I think, curious and interested about that, but also, I think, doesn't want that too. You see that flash across her face, I think. But she is lost and she's lived this life of the mind but hasn't totally lived, ike you said, Banks. I think that's right. And those scenes, I think, along with the others capture that about her. And there's also the scene where she goes to hear that the blond actor [oh my gosh] who– Kelly! Can we please talk about Kelly?
Aaron 35:34
Kelly, who really captivates her husband. And he's like, totally up for playing that game of like, yeah, it's like this weird, flirtatious, ridiculous kind of exchange between them. And she goes to listen to the interview.
Evan 35:48
About 'Midnight Velocity.'
Aaron 35:51
Kelly's been in a movie with Keanu Reeves. She keeps talking about him as Keanu. [ahh man] But it's this image of like– she's continually looking at images and she's testing them. 'Is this what I want to be?' She's pretty disgusted by Kelly when she comes up to talk to her husband. And it's like, 'oh, no this is definitely not interesting to me. This is definitely not who I am.' But then that just keeps again, scratching, or itching, let's say like, kind of punching the bruise. Well, then who am I? Who am I? Who am I? It just keeps getting hit.
Evan 36:26
Yeah. So she's in the running for leechy character for me.
Aaron 36:30
But what about Bob?
Banks 36:31
But what about Bob?
Evan 36:32
What About Bob? Speaking of what about Bob. So I think we should talk about Bob. Can I give some honorable mentions? I think both Kelly and John, Charlotte's husband [yeah] are like, leechy in the sense that they just suck the life out of me. [eww] They're so grating and superficial and lame. I just think we need to– name that– I don't know if there's anything salutary about them, but they're so–
Banks 37:04
Dem some crummy people right there. [oh yuck].
Evan 37:07
Yeah. They deserve each other. Honestly. I will talk about Bob just a little bit. I think he is this– we've talked about– he's weathered, he's cynical, he's misanthropic, and yet there are these moments, right, in the song that I described, or even just the smile on his face at the very end of the film, before he gets back into the car. He's whispered into Charlotte's ear, they've kissed. And the look on his face is like he's a child again. And Banks, I'm still thinking about your point about how this is like a cycle that he might be repeating. [Hmm] So I think that's very possible. But I think it's still, in either case, it's leechy. Because this is someone who's deeply cynical, capable of some moments of happiness, but also so clearly trapped in these patterns, or these cycles. And that's hard to watch– worth considering, probably, but really hard to watch.
Aaron 38:03
Can we also put forward Charlie Brown – [haha!] – who is a wonderful character by the way [that's great]. Not actually a leechy character. [just delightful]
Banks 38:15
Also, I've always wondered if– one thing I noticed when watching the film this last time is, right before we meet Charlie Brown, Bob puts on a yellow and black shirt that looks very much like a Charlie Brown shirt.
Evan 38:29
That makes total sense. Yeah, I love that.
Banks 38:31
I don't know. Maybe it's–
Aaron 38:32
Is it that terrible camouflage shirt that he puts on wrong side out?
Evan 38:36
Yeah, that's good.
Banks 38:38
That's right. That's a terrible one. I just want to add a little bit more because for me, Bob is also like, very, very leechy. And I think that there is like, almost a youth– I don't think it's a naivete– but it's a sense of possibility with Charlotte's character. And for Bob's character, I guess I have a harder time just seeing him as having innocence, in that sense. I have a sense that he's been a very successful, famous man for a very long time. And that comes with power. And I think he's someone who's learned how to utilize it. I don't think that– the things that for me that are strange– like he does love his kids. That's clear. He also forgets their birthdays. Like he's also running away from them. Right? He also is doing all these things that are just– there's so much of him that seems to take a lot for granted. It's almost– what's oh, what's the word?– there's a complacency to his character that for me is really troubling, because he clearly is talented at one point. He clearly is very insightful. He clearly has the capacity to care. He has the capacity to be a good husband and a good father. And yet he's just going to go to the bar every night. So there's a complacency to who he is that for me is aggravating. I want him to be better. [Yeah.] And I feel as though he settles for being less than he could be, because he could be a great mentor. But he refuses to do that, and instead– it means a lot for me– like they're in the elevator, he kisses her on the cheek twice. I'm like, that's a big deal. There's emotional affairs there for sure. And that kind of totally undoes so much of what he could be. And so that's leechy to me.
Evan 40:35
Yeah. Yes, there is much complacency in Bob that is very painful to watch. At the same time, there are moments of levity in this film, moments of humor even? You guys think it's time to go to the beach?
Banks 40:52
Let's go to the beach y'all.
Aaron 40:56
Go to the hotel pool– It'll be good.
Evan 41:11
Oh, man, Aaron, what takes you to the beach in this movie?
Aaron 41:15
Oh, wow. You remember the scene where they're at– their clubbing with Charlie Brown. And he like, breaks a bottle at the bar. [Yeah.] And the bartender whips out this like, high capacity BB gun? And just starts chasing them around the streets like shooting BBs at everybody? I was like [that's amazing] what is this movie?! It's just like– there are moments where this movie is so restrained, and moments where it's just like, wild and ridiculous. And that is one for me.
Banks 41:43
Oh my god.
Evan 41:44
For me, there was a couple of moments. I think when the lounge singer sings Scarborough Fair.
Banks 41:52
Oh my god. [hahaha]
Evan 41:55
The most like painfully slow rendition that is so bad. And it's just even funnier when you realize later that he, you know– I don't know if it's self-loathing or whatever– but he hooks up with her, and is so embarrassed and guilty the next day, like, that made me laugh.
Aaron 42:15
And– the humor becomes leechier.
Evan 42:16
Yeah. And then I thought it was just funny when the guy at the photoshoot said the real James Bond was Roger Moore. I love that. And then the guy when Charlotte goes to the arcade and there's just this guy killing it on GarageBand with like, a cigarette hanging out of his mouth [so good!] and the camera just lingers on him. I'm like, this guy's awesome.
Banks 42:38
We cannot forget the great, you know, treadmill, elliptical, Donna Maxine. And I just I love that– it's aged so well, as we've continued to use these technologies and all these things. And just, it's become more automated and things have worked. And then they don't, it's just like, it's just very, it's a very meme-worthy moment. And I think it's absolutely hilarious. I loved it. And so it's great. Yeah.
Evan 43:05
I do think Kelly has some great dialogue. We talked about 'Midnight Velocity.' There's some really uncomfortable story she tells us about her dad. But as that's happening, the other guy at the table is telling Charlotte about the beat sounding, quote, "hella large on the track." That I really liked! [hahaha!]
Banks 43:27
'Do you know what I'm talking about'?
Aaron 43:33
Speaking of things aging really well– in this movie, we also have to talk about ways that the humor in this movie feels compromised, so often [yes] compromised. Because for those who are watching this film, and trying to laugh at it, and there's a lot to laugh at, you shall find that over 20 years, especially the humor that comes at the expense of Japanese language and Japanese culture is pretty uncomfortable in the film, actually.
Banks 44:00
Yeah, it's like almost written into the title as one of the issues. Like it's kind of almost part of the DNA of the film, you know. You just think– these long scenes at the photoshoots, right?– where it occurred to me, actually watching it, like, 'Oh, is this supposed to be hilarious?'
Evan 44:19
I think people– I think it played that way in 2003 when it came out. I think people thought it was hilarious, or certain people did.
Aaron 44:24
Because it's all so incomprehensible, right? Because you are watching the film, experiencing the world, through the lens of these white western characters. To whom the language, the people, the culture is so foreign. That foreignness is exaggerated [yeah] to quite an extreme in order to make a joke, but in a way that I think, ultimately now doesn't– that doesn't ring true. That doesn't feel right.
Evan 44:51
Yeah, I mean, I think it's Japanese language and culture that are stereotyped, but also Japanese people. I mean, like [yeah] is there– I try to think like– were there Japanese people represented on film who were not caricatured? And the only one I could think about is Charlie Brown, maybe, and some of the friends at the party, but we don't really spend time with them. We don't know their names really.
Aaron 45:12
Or their stories, yeah.
Evan 45:14
So yeah, the humor I really bumped against. I remember when this movie came out, really loving it, but not obviously remembering those parts. But this time through I was like, 'Oh, wow, that's not good.'
Banks 45:25
That didn't– that did not age.
Aaron 45:26
So if you want to, if you want to get to– if you want to get to the medicine, if you want to get to the riches of this film– if there are riches in it [yeah]– there's a lot to reckon with here.
Evan 45:37
Yeah, that's right. I think you're right. Speaking of things to reckon with, and the hirudotherapy– is their medicine in this film for us? It might be hard to find, but what are we thinking about?
Aaron 45:49
I think absolutely, yes. I think it has to do with the power of human connection to be an agent of change, to be a stimulant of reflection. I want to– actually, when I'm thinking about medicine in this film, I do think– you know, we get a lot of fast-paced, kind of handheld-camera-style depictions of the city of Tokyo. But that scene in Kyoto, that scene in Kyoto– I mean, there are multiple ways to read that scene. One of which is that Charlotte goes to Kyoto, she goes out in nature, she goes to the temple, and she feels nothing. And I mean, I think that's part of it. But I read a really interesting take on that scene today, that focuses on the idea of Charlotte being at the start of that scene a passenger, who takes a train to Kyoto, and we're shown Charlotte on the train as a passenger in her own life, in a way. I think there's something interesting about the moment where she hangs that little piece of paper on the tree. [Yeah.] It's called an Omikuji. It's a kind of fortune that you can procure while you're at the temple, a fortune that you can read and think about and reflect on in the context of your life and then put on the tree in hopes that it will come true– right?– in hopes that it will, yeah, offer something lasting for your life. And I think– again, this is part of my understanding of the film, my read of the film– both characters, actually, it looks like they're totally in place, that they've never really gone anywhere by the end of the film. But I think they have taken these interior journeys. And I think one of those moments that we see that is when Charlotte's in Kyoto, and I think, what is it, what has stimulated those journeys? What has caused them to not just ask questions – 'Why am I lost? Where am I? Why can't I find a way out?' – not just to ask the questions, but to feel like I now have the energy to think of more creative answers than I did before? And I think they found that in this strange connection– which again, is a complicated one, and maybe in some ways, a problematic connection– but I think, yeah, it's hard for me to finish this film and not think that there was something beautiful there for these two characters, even if it was really conflicted. And in some ways, maybe even inappropriate, but I think it did something to their lives that they didn't know how to find any other way.
Evan 48:21
Yeah, I want to speak to that as well. I think– that scene in Kyoto really stands out to me as well, in part because of what it shows us about Charlotte, but also just the beauty of the shots. [Yes.] Some of the most stunning cinematography in the whole movie is in that passage. I mean, there's a number of amazing shots throughout this film. And so where I feel– whereas Japanese culture and people are often caricatured, Copolla's camera really attends to the land, and the architecture of Japan, and even some of the spiritual traditions in ways that I found kind of moving. At the same time, I think, come back to snapshots and the framing of images– I think it's interesting that so often in this film, and I really noticed it in the Kyoto scene, when she's walking across the square in front of the temple– at no point is Charlotte in the center of the frame. She's always off center. And in so many of the shots, Bob too is off center. And I think that visually, Copolla is showing us how off center these two people are, how decentered, destabilized, they both are. Lost, right? And yet, I think where I take therapy or medicine here is that despite being off center, off kilter, they find some kind of connection. There are these moments of beauty. And I think, especially for Charlotte– I'm not convinced really for Bob, or I'm less convinced for Bob– but I do think for Charlotte there is this moment of reframing, of taking these sort of scattered snapshots that seemed just like random moments, but actually beginning to turn them towards a purpose or meaning, that is still unknown, but is like a step toward that. And I think that's kind of lovely.
Banks 50:11
I really like that idea, the idea of taking snapshots and reframing them into something that has more meaning. I think that's, that's profound. And it does make you wonder, like, what are their next steps going to be?
Aaron 50:23
I think it's one of the reasons that a friend who watched the movie with me, it finished and he said, 'What? That's the end? What was that movie?!' Because you want to– like, if there's anything you're supposed to do in this movie, anything you can hold on to, it's the characters– and you're not even told what will become of them, right? [Yeah.] And I think that's maybe a sign of a leechy movie, in a way– is that level of ambiguity, and that level of, 'You don't get to know that, you're not going to be told that.' You have to, in a way, try and take these snapshots and frame them in a kind of understanding. I think this just goes back to the ways that these films ask so much of us.
Evan 51:06
I think the other thing that I'm thinking about with photography, and snapshots too, is that for people who are so connected to photography, they are so unseen, personally, right? Charlotte is not seen; Bob is being photographed, but clearly is so uncomfortable. And again, they're sort of confined by the, by the picture frame that's around them. There's such a sense in which Bob is trapped, like one of the shots early on, he's in the car, and the overhang of the hotel– it's this like diamond pattern. [That's right.] When you see his face come into the light, that square is around it, he's stuck, he's trapped. And what happens though, when in the midst of being trapped, you find a connection? Can you actually reframe, change the frame, break the frame, emerge? That's the question I'm sitting with.
Aaron 51:58
I think it's a beautiful question to ask of any life, not just the lives of these characters, but anyone who feels stuck or that their lives can't change. I was just reading Thoreau today. He says that basically we feel like every question that could be asked about life has already been settled. And everybody already knows the best way that life should be lived. But he says, in his view, so few things have actually been tried. So few ways that humans could possibly live their lives have been tried, that it's outrageous to think that the questions are settled. And so I think any life can become interested in those questions.
Evan 52:35
Yeah, yeah. Banks, any medicine for you?
Banks 52:38
You know, this will start translating a little bit here to my leech rating. [Yes.] I had a harder time finding therapy in this movie. I think that this movie– I had a lot– I found myself very disappointed in some of the characters. And frankly, you know, I remember watching– I had watched this movie probably back in college or some other moment. And I completely forgot this movie. [Oh, wow.] And I watched it again, you know, and I found myself really wanting to find incredible therapy here. I guess I left the movie, feeling– I sort of left it feeling lost. I left it feeling like the characters could have been doing so much more. I think I said, like, there's this complacency. I wanted more of that agency. I wanted more of that sense of them seizing something and making more of what could have been, I don't know, a meeting. And it still felt to me like two pieces of wreckage colliding. And so I agree– the pace of the movie, the patience of it, the cinematography, there's an appreciation that went into a lot of it. And I can see that, and I echo a lot of what I've heard. I have a harder time adding my own thought. And when I look at this movie, like transitioning on to leech [rating], this was for me, this was less of a leechy film. And so I think I'm actually going to be on the lower end of this leech rating. And so I'm probably going to be giving this– it might be a zero leech film for me.
Aaron 54:27
Ohhh.
Evan 54:27
Wow. Zero.
Aaron 54:28
Sir. Aye yi yi.
Banks 54:32
I hear that there's a lot there, and I think that there are some things there. So I'm thinking I might make it a one leech film. Like, I was thinking zero– I'm between the two. I think I'm landing on one.
Aaron 54:44
Oh, good gracious.
Evan 54:46
I'm also at one. [mmm] I could maybe be talked into two, but I think I'm at one. It's complicated. There are parts– I think I was laughing quite a bit in certain scenes and whatnot, so it didn't feel quite as painful as some other leech movies we've watched. So it didn't suck as much life out of me, although I think the leech I am giving it is because it did take something out of me, watching [yeah] just sort of how bleak especially Bob is. Bob is a tough one for me. And so I think I'm there on at least one leech. I think there is some medicine here that we've discussed. That's where I would be tempted to go up to two. But yeah, I was also surprised, Banks, by how little I remembered from the first time I watched it. [Oh, wow.] Some images, some images stood out.
Banks 55:33
Yeah, it didn't stick with me.
Evan 55:34
Yeah. So I think I'm at 1.5.
Banks 55:42
I was at .5, you're at 1.5.
Aaron 55:44
Let me offer two more thoughts here. One is that sometimes leech ratings are deeply influenced by your own life story, and your own personal context. [Sure.] While in conversation with these friends recently, another question was raised about– is the leechiness of a film impacted by the world outside the frame of the film? And this is part of the question about Murray, right? Should we be additionally uncomfortable with the events and story of the film because of these recent allegations? How much would, again, the world outside the film shape our experience of it, to the degree that it would actually suck more life out of us? [Ahh, fascinating.] It's an interesting question, I think. For especially one woman whom I watched the film with, who had heard about these Murray allegations, the movie was doubly uncomfortable for her because of that. [Yeah.] So that's interesting. I mean, so there might be– Is it even possible? And I'm not saying it is– but to add a leech to a film because of– a leech that's actually kind of migrated into our conversation of the film–
Evan 56:54
Like it came riding in on a sika deer? [there you go]
Aaron 56:59
Ha! It came down from the mountains on the sika deer!
Evan 57:02
Twenty years after its release.
Aaron 57:04
Oh, that's fascinating!
Evan 57:05
I actually think that's a great point. Actually, I think that, of course, films exist as sort of just the film, right? The text. But films always exist within a context in a culture. And their interpretation is in the people that are interpretating them. So I'm very open to the idea of an extra leech added because of the history of interpretation in the communities that have received it [isn't that fascinating] since it was released.
Aaron 57:07
And so for me– but my own personal life, you know, thinking about the ways that my own marriage fell apart– this movie has a special place in my heart of showing me other people who are really struggling with that feeling of lostness in a relationship, and that feeling of longing for connection. When you know you should be connected to someone, but that's not there. [Yeah.] And so for me, this is a minimum two leecher for me. And then I don't know what to do with the migratory leech that has kind of come into the frame.
Banks 58:15
Maybe it's a .5 ! Then we got a .5, a 1.5 and a 2.5.
Aaron 58:18
I think I'm gonna go 2.5, at least, because of the migratory leech.
Evan 58:25
We've tried so hard not to do half leeches. But I think maybe that speaks to how sort of in between these characters are: we're in between leeches. [There we go.] Yeah. All right. Well, thanks, everyone for tuning in to our discussion of 'Lost in Translation.' As always, we are the Leech Podcast, the most visceral podcast. You can reach out to us of course with ideas, feedback, comments, we'd love to hear from you. Reach out to us of course @leechpodcast on Twitter, @theleechpodcast on Instagram, and theleechpodcast.com. On behalf of Banks and Aaron, I'm Evan Cate. Thanks for tuning in. See you soon. This episode was hosted by Evan Cate, Banks Clark, and Aaron Jones. Editing by Evan Cate. Graphics designed by Banks Clark. Original music by Justin Clump of Podcast Sound and Music, and equipment help and consultation from Topher Thomas.